The State of Israel was founded first;

The Arab countries preceded Israel by more than a millennia.

If you believe "books" at one point in the past there were no Jews, but there were Arabs. I think that would make them the decedents or filthy invaders.

Mmmm...

Were not Jewish peoples the predominant group of people in that area for the time of Jesus Christ and long before?...

Before even the times where Arabs became so named??...


Choose your convenient point in history?

Or live in cooperative prosperous peace today?


All in a very deadly political world...
Martin

---

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Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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... Don't want to interrupt anybody... but I think we had that here repeatedly... This is an endless cycle; I've read a lot of good arguments for, as well as against every viewpoint; It's in the nature of the problem: Who is legitimately settling on a territory based on historic rights of ancestors resp. people from the same tribe or nation?

My reply was intended to criticize problematic journalism. The example was a mixed up historic (and undisputed) chronology and an obviously one-sided report which furthermore intentionally omits known and verified facts.

It's not about Wiggo's article. It's everywhere... It's even not limited to the Gaza topic... look at BBC, U.S. newspapers, public German TV or some most influential newspapers... There's an increasingly growing number of a younger generation of activist journalists (and publishing directors; or company owners?) who have a steadfast opinion and feel called upon to serve a 'good cause', to form a bulwark against contrary, dissenting, and therefore inadmissible opinions.

That's not what the profession of journalism is all about.

That's not what the profession of journalism is all about.

It sells advertising, and putting food on the table is the point.

The Arab countries preceded Israel by more than a millennia.

And the Kingdoms of "Israel" (Samaria) and "Judah" preceded the Arab Caliphate and its aggressively expanding (land theft!!!) followers of prophete Mohammed from the Arab peninsula for more than another millenia.

I think that would make them the decedents or filthy invaders.

...the Arabs alias "Palestinians"? I think that's not wrong... but too harsh a judgement. Individuals living today can't be blamed for their historic roots.

That's not what the profession of journalism is all about.

It sells advertising, and putting food on the table is the point.

Where has the age of enlightenment gone? Of truthfulness... of striving for the Greater Good? Just basic instincts is all that remains from a glorious past? This has ruined my day. :-( So sad...

I know you're right... but... you simply can't... so cynic... straightforward...

That's not what the profession of journalism is all about.

It sells advertising, and putting food on the table is the point.

Where has the age of enlightenment gone? Of truthfulness... of striving for the Greater Good? Just basic instincts is all that remains from a glorious past? This has ruined my day. :-( So sad...

I know you're right... but... you simply can't... so cynic... straightforward...

Lawyers ethics has supplanted everything.

That's not what the profession of journalism is all about.

It sells advertising, and putting food on the table is the point.

Where has the age of enlightenment gone? Of truthfulness... of striving for the Greater Good? Just basic instincts is all that remains from a glorious past? This has ruined my day. :-( So sad...

I know you're right... but... you simply can't... so cynic... straightforward...

Lawyers ethics has supplanted everything.

That's a new one on me, lawyers with ethics, you'll be telling me next they have morals.

And yet Adolf Benji and his Nazi butchers continue to ramp up the murderous slaughter.

Israel launches deadly wave of strikes amid ceasefire talks.

Israeli forces have ramped up a bombing campaign that has killed hundreds of people over 72 hours, amid ceasefire talks with Hamas.

Palestinian health authorities said at least 146 people were killed on the third day of Israel's latest bombing campaign, one of the deadliest waves of strikes since a ceasefire collapsed in March.

Many hundreds more were wounded in hospitals and countless others buried under rubble.

Inside Gaza, people fled from the bombardment of northern areas, pushing their belongings on carts........

Murderous slaughter at the least, genocide at the most.

That's not what the profession of journalism is all about.

It sells advertising, and putting food on the table is the point.

Where has the age of enlightenment gone? Of truthfulness... of striving for the Greater Good? Just basic instincts is all that remains from a glorious past? This has ruined my day. :-( So sad...

I know you're right... but... you simply can't... so cynic... straightforward...

Lawyers ethics has supplanted everything.

That's a new one on me, lawyers with ethics, you'll be telling me next they have morals.

I never said that is what you would find in Webster's dictionary. After all the legendary law firm of Dewey, Cheatem and Howe authored that part of Black's Law dictionary.

The State of Israel was founded first;

The Arab countries preceded Israel by more than a millennia.

If you believe "books" at one point in the past there were no Jews, but there were Arabs. I think that would make them the decedents or filthy invaders.

Mmmm...

Were not Jewish peoples the predominant group of people in that area for the time of Jesus Christ and long before?...

Before even the times where Arabs became so named??...

Mesopotamia, Sumerians non-Semitic-speaking. Seems like everyone has equal claim if you go back a bit more.

Mesopotamia, Sumerians non-Semitic-speaking. Seems like everyone has equal claim if you go back a bit more.

You couldn't go back any further, as Sumer was the first civilization there, isn't it? .... but the Sumerians never expanded to the Mediterranean. Only their successors, the Neo-Babylonians did so in ~600 BC.

... and guess what, these occupants besieged Jerusalem, treated the native Judeans there badly, destroyed their Temple and capital, and deported ~20,000, that even centuries later their fate was written down in what became the Old Testament. Judah's population collapsed to a tenth. That was a genocide!

The Sumerans resp. Neo-Babylonian invaders from today's Iraq clearly never had a legitimate claim for the Holy Land.

Btw., it supposedly was the semitic tongue of abducted captives from conquered lands (the Empire's exaggerated habit of superiority) in non-semitic Babylon that led to the "Confusio Linguarum", the proverbial Babylonian confusion.

Adolf Benji ups his genocidal game of "Whac-A-Mole".

IDF issues major evacuation warning for residents in southern Gaza.

The Israel Defense Forces has issued a major evacuation warning for southern Gaza, telling tens of thousands of residents in the area around the city of Khan Younis to leave.

The IDF says it is preparing to launch an "unprecedented attack" against Hamas in the area, after local authorities said a week of deadly air strikes across the strip had killed more than 500 people.

The latest warning from the IDF means almost all of southern Gaza is now under evacuation warnings, with Israeli forces having already cleared the Palestinian population out of the city of Rafah.

Palestinians around Khan Younis are being told to head west towards the coast and the Al Mawasi region — an area once described as a humanitarian zone, but which has been repeatedly targeted in Israeli strikes........

It's just moving Palestinians from 1 killing spot to another and I can just imagine the number of Palestinians that will be arrested at those Israeli so called "aid sites".

It's just moving Palestinians from 1 killing spot to another and I can just imagine the number of Palestinians that will be arrested at those Israeli so called "aid sites".

Israelis refuse to further supply Hamas with food and aid goods which they seize and press civilians to pay for; to raise the money for their terorrists batallions. IDF supposedly achieved to end the smuggling of arms, banknotes, and gold... from Egypt through smuggling tunnels, when they took control of the Philadelphi corridor along the border to Egypt, months ago.

The international law is crystal clear in this regard. A warring faction is not obliged to supply enemy forces, nor civilians, which Israel nevertheless did until recently (electricity, water, internet uplink, cellular network, food supplies).

BUT these 'occupants' are obliged to... No... because they still do not 'control' the Gaza strip; just a couple of uninhabited strongholds and corridors to limit Hamas' freedom of movement.

Of course, Israel immediately becomes obliged to supply all civilians as soon as they take control of inhabited quarters, camps etc; resp. sectorize/separate the enemies' territory such that the Hamas looses control. This is what they supposedly will do for now: Supplying civilians with free aid at distribution points in sectors IDF will control; while hindering Hamas from raising money by robbing aid goods; to empty their 'war chest'.

The more ethical, more humane, superior solution for Gaza that concerned pro-Palestine goverments suggest instead, is exactly what?

• Ending hostilities against Hamas
  
• Withdrawing all IDF troops ASAP from Gaza
  
• Tolerate Hamas rule in Gaza
  
• Cede border zone with Egypt to the Hamas tunnel moles again
  
• Speedy reconstruction with billions of intl. donor's money
  
• Force Israel to let pass unlimited amounts of "aid" (food?, arms?, ammunition?) into the strip
  
• Tolerate dozens of alive Israeli hostages in Hamas dungeons
  

That means a return to Oct 8th 2023, "The Day After"... which will not happen.

What REALISTIC alternative solution to what Israel does now, was proposed? By whom? Which country offered to take responsibility for Gaza, to stop the terror; enable peace, a different future? (btw. hostages... it seems all U.S. hostages had been released; so, why not awarding U.S. citizenship to all remaining ones? Uhh, fooling and blackmailing Hamas is unfair, isn't it?) So, no alternative proposals? No diplomatic initiatives? Why is that?

Are the outspoken pro-Palestine governments just pretending to be concerned about Palestinians fate but aren't willing to lead them into a different future, because that would require: contradict Palestinians, decide for them, lecturing them, coercing them; or even punish some of them? Nobody wants that. Imagine the bad press, freaking out social media, horrible photos of reluctant, unhappy Palestinians... It's every pro-Palestine governments worst nightmare to lose their affection. (I suspect there never was one... a one-sided form of affection)

What do they do instead? Screaming: Sanction the evil oppressor Israel! That's cheapest. It doesn't requires any government to take responsibility for Gaza resp. Palestinians; eventually risk their countries' reputation among them, these noble, chaste savages, or e.g. among Arab nations.

Thousands of innocents died and more will die until there's peace. Who's responsible? Israel? Palestinians? Hamas? ...?

There never will be peace without a reflected, truthful, and balanced answer by both sides to these basic questions. Further suppression of reality prolongs the conflict and will cost the lives of further thousands, even more suffering for decades to come.

Of course, Israel immediately becomes obliged to supply all civilians as soon as they take control of inhabited quarters, camps etc;

As they have seized partial control of all of Gaza, blockade on all sides years long ...

Of course, Israel immediately becomes obliged to supply all civilians as soon as they take control of inhabited quarters, camps etc;

As they have seized partial control of all of Gaza, blockade on all sides years long ...

They supplied them during years of blockade; there was no starving in Gaza; instead an average income and way of life on par with Jordan (yes, restricted freedom on a small territory). But there never was a realistic alternative for Israel as to fully control Gaza's sea; air; land borders since its 2006 retreat from Gaza. There still is no alternative, as long as everything the leaders of Gaza strive for is smuggling as much arms, rockets, grenades and concrete for underground military facilities, as possible to kill the Jews. You need total international control across Gaza and strict regulation of any local cement production and import permits with mandatory proof of need (pedantic calculation of demand). Cement is a strategic asset of war in Gaza.

Before IDF seized the Philadelphi corridor, there was no blockade on ALL sides. Egypt too was obliged to supply them. In Rafah they controlled an international border with Gaza. But the Egypt-Israel peace treaty restricted border trade (no arms, ammunition, or rockets... an outrageous restriction?). Egypt obviously violated this treaty by (deliberately?) negligent border protection with regard to smuggling of arms; resp. preventing construction of border-crossing tunnels.

In another region and an "ordinary war" (what a disgusting, debatable term...).... anyway... Egypt would be obliged to accomodate an unlimited number of war refugees from Gaza. Ask Egypt's government about this prospect; they will bluntly deny such an obligation; pointing two fingers at Israel instead. They know Palestinian islamists and Hamas alias 'Muslim brotherhood' so well, who many times endangered Egypt's governments. Egypt constructed at least four parallel lines of massive border fortifications to keep Gazans out, however hard they try to storm the border and whatever the cost.

The cardinal error which required total blockade of Gaza was Sharon's unilateral retreat from Gaza in 2006 WITHOUT a treaty or commitment from Palestinians; just to appease domestic opposition and International Community blaming Israel as occupants. Sharon (a military genius but diplomatic illiterate) opted for an ill-considered plan that he could enforce (trumpesque?). A stupid International Community (UN*, NGO's et. al.) believed they can establish a democracy in Gaza/West Bank from their comfy offices abroad; for a pre-modern, brainwashed society.... and achieve that without prior foreign (occupation) or international administration (full UN control of each aspect of life in Gaza). Doomed to failure... like "Project Democracy" in Afghanistan.

Likud hawks hated Sharon for betraying their delusional Greater Israel dream. Others predicted a de-occupied Gaza will soon descend into anarchy. Reality exceeded the worst doubts.

Gaza needs a wise and widely respected "king" now, one who just pretends to be a good Muslim (backward, dumb peasants expect that), but who will put Gaza's interests first, before commandments in the Quran (like Saudis, Jordan, Egypt leaders), that is, refrain from jihad... ah... and who embezzles not soo much aid money as Mahmoud Abbas, or. e.g. Hamas leaders in Qatar, such that rebuilding and transforming Gaza will be successful.

Since they did supply them, they acknowledge it is a duty. You speak of error being withdrawal. No the error was the original occupation. Once begun it can never be ended. Look at Vietnam. Years of French rule, given to the United States who was driven out. The only exception in recent times I can think of is Japan, but they had surrendered so perhaps different. Consider your own country and the two different occupations.

Since they did supply them, they acknowledge it is a duty.

Nope. A voluntary gesture of good will by supplying a foreign territory never becomes a duty.

You speak of error being withdrawal. No the error was the original occupation. Once begun it can never be ended. Look at Vietnam. Years of French rule, given to the United States who was driven out. The only exception in recent times I can think of is Japan, but they had surrendered so perhaps different. Consider your own country and the two different occupations.

Vietnam was occupied by a colonial resp. imperial power from across the ocean. Gaza's and West Bank's occupation was no error. Gaza's was militarily necessary. West Bank was imparative for Israel's survival. You can't compare Imperial adventures abroad with a sovereign state that is forced to defend its very existence.

Yes, the difference with Japan and Germany lays in total defeat and unconditional surrender (resp. realization of having pursued unattainable Imperial goals; inexplicable number of victims; total destruction). Foreign occupation was forced but understood as inevitable consequence of the lost war; accepted by most people; even Soviet rule here in the first years after WW2.

Egypt occupied and claimed the Gaza strip already in 1957; misused it repeatedly to attack Israel, short invasions by IL,UK & FR followed... In 1967 Egypt's President Nasser boldly kicked out the UNEF peacekeepers which separated Egyptian army from the IDF. In the following Six-Days war Israel was shelled by artillery from Gaza; So, they conquered and occupied the strip. It wasn't planned; just a tactical decision during a battle.

But yes, you're right: with today's knowledge (decades of futile terror), I think, Israel would have retreated from Gaza immediately after the ceasefire, already in 1967. Gaza represented no threat; its continued occupation was wrong. It was sufficient to control/occupy the Sinai to keep Egyptian (Soviet supplied) tanks and jet fighters far away from Israel until a peace treaty. But also in this case: Gaza would have been separated from Egypt's territory and administration for more than a decade. PLO was founded in 1964. Arafat's (an Egyptian Arab btw.) terrorists took control of the initially political PLO in 1968. So, the first PLO terror base would have been Gaza instead of Jordan from 1968 onwards? An alternative past does not guarantee a better present; perhaps even a worse one.

Based on military resp. diplomatic logic you do not cede a territory you conquered in war for free. It's a bargaining chip in peace negotiations. Who could have known in 1967 that even in 2025, almost 60 years later, there's still neither the conditions, nor a treaty to achieve peace for Gaza and West Bank. Yes, you're right; as soon as the terror paradigm overwhelmed rational politics in Palestine; the occupation can never be ended; resp. it becomes more and more a complex international problem, an inextricable mess. More and more involved parties who abuse the previously regional conflict for their selfish (evil?) interests. e.g. Mullahs... or bored, aimless, western liberal youth (I'm provoking... sorry.)

Another cardinal error may have been made by Israel with the Camp David Accords of 1978 in which Egypt renounced its territorial claim over the Gaza strip. Intended by President Sadat as part of a political plan to establish an autonomous Palestine (Gaza and West Bank)... Still doesn't exist... Or was Egypt's renouncement an intentionally placed tripwire; to indeed achieve peace for Egypt, while making peace impossible for Israel? Egypt's former President Nasser founded PLO; a fanatic opponent of Israel's existence.

Imagine Gaza since 1978 or 1980 would have been a district of Egypt instead. Problem solved. Peace prevails. Gaza today would feature a trade port; an international airport, (hmm... gas fields in its EEZ in the Mediterranean Sea). And Egypt would be obliged to suppress islamist terror in Gaza, as they repeatedly did on the Sinai.

There was no possible solution for the West Bank occupation in 1978...1980 which required a peace treaty with Jordan first (signed only in 1994); to end the threat of Iraq's enormous tank army from Jordan's territory.

The distance from the West Bank to the coastline is less than 10 miles. Just TEN miles of strategic depth in Israel's territory. In the initial hours of the Six Days War Jordan's Army immediately attacked Jerusalem, including Knesset, and the PM's residence with thousands of artillery shells. A tank advance from West Bank could have split Israel's territory in two small remainder parts within hours.

So, the West Bank's occupation was imperative in 1967. The fear of the strategic danger of ever having to withdraw from West Bank, while facing a growing threat of many thousands of Soviet supplied battle tanks in Egypt, Iraq, Syria, and Jordan led to Israel's (illegal!) strategy of building fortified West Bank settlements as far East as possible; to widen its strategic depth for the next war (just six years later... btw.)

Well Israel is being called out yet again by the U.N. as the U.K. and the E.U. start talking about sanctions against the Nazi run Israel.

UN says no aid yet distributed in Gaza as international pressure on Israel mounts.

The UN says no aid has yet been distributed in Gaza despite aid lorries starting to cross the border after an 11-week blockade.

Israeli officials said 93 trucks entered Gaza on Tuesday, carrying aid including flour, baby food, medical equipment, and pharmaceutical drugs.

But the UN said, despite trucks reaching the Palestinian side of the Kerem Shalom crossing, no aid had yet been distributed.

Its spokesperson Stephane Dujarric said a team "waited several hours" for Israel to allow them to access the area but "unfortunately, they were not able to bring those supplies into our warehouse".......

You speak of error being withdrawal. No the error was the original occupation. Once begun it can never be ended. Look at Vietnam. Years of French rule, given to the United States who was driven out. The only exception in recent times I can think of is Japan, but they had surrendered so perhaps different. Consider your own country and the two different occupations.

Vietnam was occupied by a colonial resp. imperial power from across the ocean. Gaza's and West Bank's occupation was no error. Gaza's was militarily necessary. West Bank was imparative for Israel's survival. You can't compare Imperial adventures abroad with a sovereign state that is forced to defend its very existence.

Again, the occupation is the error. The occupation from the 1948 event. This is the error. Until it is rectified one way or another war and terror will persist.

As to Egypt dropping Gaza, who asked for that? Did Sadat come up with it himself? Or did he just go along with a suggestion from some other party? Did he feel unable to defend it from an aggressor?

The rest of the world's error was in stopping the six day war. Israel could have reclaimed its pre-exodus homeland.

They must of been getting close to something that the Israelis didn't want them to see.

Israeli forces open fire towards diplomatic delegation touring Jenin in the northern West Bank.

Foreign diplomats have been forced to run for cover after Israeli troops opened fire towards a delegation touring the city of Jenin in the West Bank.

Several European countries have condemned the incident, with the French government labelling the incident "unacceptable" and summoning Israel's ambassador.

Video shared on social media shows Israeli soldiers pointing their weapons in the direction of the diplomats, who were standing at a boom gate in the Jenin refugee camp.......