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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 2066223 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 6:51:47 UTC - in response to Message 2066209.  
Last modified: 21 Jan 2021, 7:05:37 UTC

Stop quibbling.
Someone needs a class in historic English. American English hadn't had a chance to develop in those few short years, so it was the King's English. Why don't you try reading Shakespeare as written, not the modernized version. Or tell me about the punctuation in the Second Amendment. Which is the independent clause and which is the dependent clause?

There was only 13 colonies at the time of writing.
Sorry, there were no colonies when that was written, there were 13 United States of America under The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union.

but it was not non-Americans in Washington Jan 6th.
levying War against the them [United States]
I'd say it was non-Americans. Kind of like the people who signed the Declaration of Independence were not subjects of the King.

...so time to bring it up to date.
Ah, a Constitutional Convention. Best be careful. They can produce some real whoppers!

<edit>The weakness is of man, not the document. One could ask about greed and building cladding and who was supposed to protect the public. When men conspire to do evil for the greed of profit, no words on paper, no matter what the words are, can stop the designs of the dishonorable, the disloyal or the corrupt. No code is without omissions, it is only the honor of those who lead that prevents the exploitation of loopholes for greed. The lesson of Trump.
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Message 2066224 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 8:08:43 UTC - in response to Message 2066223.  

<edit>The weakness is of man, not the document.
Still quibbling I see.
Historic English? One should be using modern language as this is the 21st century.
Which came 1st? The chicken man or the egg document?
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Message 2066228 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 9:02:29 UTC

I spend much of my working life ensuring that documents say only one thing, mean only one thing, and cannot be interpreted any other way.
A document that requires punctuation changes to ensure it has a single meaning are not correct, the problem lies not with the reader, but with the author. Sometimes this is because the author's first language is not English, or the document is "old" (we regularly work with documents between fifty and eighty years old - it never fails to amaze me how much English has changed over period of time), or the author has been lazy. There are a number of solutions open to us, re-write the document, send it back to the author, or produce a guidance document. The easiest when the author is living and available, is often send it back with a suitable guidance note. Re-writing can be long-winded, but it more often than not preferable to the production of an interpretive document. Interpretive documents, when used have to be used alongside the initial document, or contain the initial document embedded within it; whereas a re-written document stands on its own feet.

In the example clause above is a fine example of how written English has changed over the years. Two people are able to read the same set of words in two very different ways. One suggests this is because the document is, by today's standards, incorrectly punctuated, while the other points out a conflict due to reading those words using today's form of English. By changing the punctuation one is, in part, re-writing the document.
It's a real conundrum, should one take the document, dissect and produce a guide document to its understanding; or should one re-write the document using today's standards of English; or should leave it well alone, not changing it in any way. Yes, a hard set of questions. However I would suggest if this document arrived on my desk for assessment and review my red pen would be seriously drained by the end of the process.
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Message 2066230 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 9:56:31 UTC

However I would suggest if this document arrived on my desk for assessment and review my red pen would be seriously drained by the end of the process.
And then someone could come along and dispute your red pen.

The thing really needs to be updated while taking in all the changes that have happened over the centuries (eg. muzzle loading firearms compared to today's assault rifles and semi automatic pistols). ;-)
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Message 2066235 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 10:34:25 UTC

Something much older than the U.S. Constitution & something the U.S. should really take note of.
Magna Carta
The first Magna Carta was originally drawn up in 1215. However, it was quickly declared null and void by the Pope on the grounds it interfered with the authority of the King, and a civil war broke out in England. Following this it was then reissued in various forms over the following years, resulting in yet another version issued in 1225. It is this version that forms the basis of our common law today.
The contents of Magna Carta were placed on the statute book in 1297. In the centuries since however, much of this has been repealed.

From all discussions on these boards debating the U.S. Constitution, I cannot recall anybody that called for its abolition, just updating,
As for mentioning historic English, I really have to laugh as both British & American English use the same terms that are not English & still in use today.
Eamples
cum laude
magna cum laude
summa cum laude
per diem
carpe diem

Why is that?
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Message 2066239 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 10:51:10 UTC - in response to Message 2066235.  
Last modified: 21 Jan 2021, 10:51:24 UTC

Something much older than the U.S. Constitution & something the U.S. should really take note of.
Magna Carta
The first Magna Carta was originally drawn up in 1215. However, it was quickly declared null and void by the Pope on the grounds it interfered with the authority of the King, and a civil war broke out in England. Following this it was then reissued in various forms over the following years, resulting in yet another version issued in 1225. It is this version that forms the basis of our common law today.
The contents of Magna Carta were placed on the statute book in 1297. In the centuries since however, much of this has been repealed.

From all discussions on these boards debating the U.S. Constitution, I cannot recall anybody that called for its abolition, just updating,
As for mentioning historic English, I really have to laugh as both British & American English use the same terms that are not English & still in use today.
Eamples
cum laude
magna cum laude
summa cum laude
per diem
carpe diem

Why is that?

They do, part of the "sealing site" specifically the JFK Memorial at Runnymede is US Territory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runnymede#John_F._Kennedy_Memorial

There is one of the 1297 copies in the US National Archives.

The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution ("no person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.") is a direct descendent of Magna Carta's guarantee of proceedings according to the "law of the land."
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Message 2066241 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 11:10:44 UTC - in response to Message 2066239.  

There is one of the 1297 copies in the US National Archives.
The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution ("no person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.") is a direct descendent of Magna Carta's guarantee of proceedings according to the "law of the land."
Yep. So they've learnt from it. Shame they didn't from the rest.
Original Magna Carta 1215. Final one 1225 which entered the law books in 1297.
During the 500 years between the Magna Carta & the U.S. Constitution, much had been repealed or brought up to date.
All the U.S. Constitution has seen are amendments.
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Message 2066244 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 11:29:28 UTC

Much of the ceremonial business in the British parliament is conducted in Norman French...

La Reyne le veult
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Message 2066249 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 14:35:21 UTC - in response to Message 2066244.  

Ah, so that's where Norman is to be found now

(I was at school with one Norman French......)
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Message 2066257 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 17:44:44 UTC - in response to Message 2066239.  

... The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution ("no person shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.") is a direct descendant of Magna Carta's guarantee of proceedings according to the "law of the land."

Ahhh... An Amendment that the USA NRA and their "Gun Nuts" followers conveniently overlook in conveniently not reading past their twisting of the First Amendment...

So why is the Fifth Amendment not more prominently known?


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2066276 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 19:44:32 UTC - in response to Message 2066257.  

Now here is a pair that are hardly known at all
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


Everyone knows "to take the fifth."
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Message 2066280 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 20:13:43 UTC - in response to Message 2066228.  

the document is "old" (we regularly work with documents between fifty and eighty years old - it never fails to amaze me how much English has changed over period of time), or the author has been lazy.
In this case closer to 250 years.

Interpretive documents, when used have to be used alongside the initial document, or contain the initial document embedded within it; whereas a re-written document stands on its own feet.

And here is your list of interpretative documents
https://law.justia.com/cases/

Have fun putting all of that into a revision.

Seriously, one can't fault the author for changes to the language that happen after the document is written. Language is in a constant state of flux. This despite attempts by some governments, e.g. Spain, France, to control it.

"Be Gay!"

An example of why it is the job of the reader to understand the language as it existed at the time the document was written. Is it a command to be joyful and happy or be LGBTQ?

I note the Magna Carta has now been reduced to simple easy to change statute. That makes it subject to political whim. Very dangerous. A populist could come along and rewrite it to end its protections.
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Message 2066282 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 20:21:08 UTC - in response to Message 2066280.  

It's not only the language of the time, but the context as well.
A lot only applied to those that had the vote, property owning white men.
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Message 2066283 - Posted: 21 Jan 2021, 20:22:16 UTC - in response to Message 2066280.  
Last modified: 21 Jan 2021, 20:23:22 UTC

Language is in a constant state of flux.
Absolutely. Let's look at the Current English on both sides of the pond.
Greek>Latin>English.
Both beloved by the legal profession & academia.
I love academics, always did think of them as fruitcakes & now have it confirmed. :-)
Academic
The word academic was first introduced into the English language in the 1580s. It is derived from the Latin word academicus, which comes from the Ancient Greek name (Akademía), which was the name of a grove of olive trees sacred to the goddess Athena located north of Athens.

For those who don't know, olives are fruit.
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Message 2066901 - Posted: 27 Jan 2021, 4:55:29 UTC

Many are worried that their next paycheck might be their last, yet
Despite the costs and fines from the fallout from the 1MDB scandal, 2020 was a bumper year for Goldman's businesses with annual revenue of $44.6bn, its highest since 2009.
$10M pay cut
Mr Solomon's package consists of $2m in cash base pay, a $4.65m cash bonus, and $10.85m in stock-based compensation.
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Message 2067194 - Posted: 29 Jan 2021, 18:56:29 UTC

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Message 2067195 - Posted: 29 Jan 2021, 18:59:52 UTC - in response to Message 2067194.  
Last modified: 29 Jan 2021, 19:00:37 UTC

This is my total lack of surprise at seeing two glaringly obvious spelling errors in that "contract".
Edit: Three.
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Message 2067203 - Posted: 29 Jan 2021, 20:55:53 UTC - in response to Message 2067195.  

This is my total lack of surprise at seeing two glaringly obvious spelling errors in that "contract".
Edit: Three.

Wonder if that speaks to the IQ of the person(s) who would write such a contract.
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Message 2067204 - Posted: 29 Jan 2021, 20:58:53 UTC - in response to Message 2067195.  

This is my total lack of surprise at seeing two glaringly obvious spelling errors in that "contract".
Edit: Three.
Five
Herinafter
Sprins
Here by
Assigns (should be assignee/s)
Buriel
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Message 2067206 - Posted: 29 Jan 2021, 21:06:52 UTC - in response to Message 2067204.  

And that's in the eleven lines we can see - how many more in the rest of the document?
As to the IQ of the author of this document - this predates the routine use of spell checkers, but I'm sure any typist with pride in their work wouldn't let that bit of paper get further than the waste bin.
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Message boards : Politics : Don;t know where it should go? Stick it here 3


 
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