Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)

Author	Message
Gary Charpentier Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29915 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32	Message 2082216 - Posted: 13 Aug 2021, 20:19:11 UTC Not a Boeing problem? https://www.theverge.com/2021/8/13/22623609/boeing-starliner-capsule-iss-launch-valve-troubleshooting-delay Aerojet Rocketdyne, which supplied Starliner’s propulsion system that the valves are a part of, is working with Boeing and NASA to get to the bottom of the issue. ID: 2082216 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2082237 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 2:22:29 UTC - in response to Message 2082216. Last modified: 14 Aug 2021, 2:26:16 UTC Not a Boeing problem?... Is that a 'valid' "excuse"? Are there *any* 'excuses' that in any way can be an acceptable 'shrug off'? Has not NASA paid ridiculously over-the-odds by $BILLIONS to not be suffering childish excuses? Really? The stray dog ate the specification drawings?!!! Really, Boeing somehow can absolve themselves of their expensive incompetence and non-checks for safety and non-checks for compliance of their design? Or... If this is not Boeing's design, they have not checked that the design works, reliably, for Astronauts to trust their lives with? Really, can Boeing 'Management' just shrug their shoulders of anything and everything with no responsibility other than for grabbing the money? IIRC from elsewhere, is the 'root cause problem' that some rainwater exposed some design/implementation 'deficiencies'?... Ouch! Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2082237 · Reply Quote

Gary Charpentier Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29915 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32	Message 2082263 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 14:56:48 UTC - in response to Message 2082237. Not a Boeing problem?... Is that a 'valid' "excuse"? YES Rocketdyne builds rocket propulsion systems, has since before Apollo. Damn well should know how by now. https://www.rocket.com/ Note the starliner is on their front page picture roll. So YES again. ID: 2082263 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2082270 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 16:02:14 UTC - in response to Message 2082263. Last modified: 14 Aug 2021, 16:08:39 UTC Not a Boeing problem?... Is that a 'valid' "excuse"? YES Rocketdyne builds rocket propulsion systems, has since before Apollo. Damn well should know how by now. https://www.rocket.com/ Note the starliner is on their front page picture roll. So YES again. Except... Boeing is the Project Authority and hence the Design Authority and so whatever 'silliness' is all theirs. Especially if they have deliberately skimped on testing and further skimped on safety contingencies... All by design?... Ultimately, even NASA is expensively in the hot seat of inadequate oversight for this project. Or has technical and/or other fraud been perpetrated?... We do have the recent example of Boeing 'pulling the wool' over the eyes of the FAA... People died for that example for something that isn't 'rocket science'... We really need to get away from this apparent 'mentality' of excuses of 'outsourcing' of all problems and risk yet being still the source of those problems and risk! All by shoddy self-preserving management design?... Have any management suffered personal financial losses from the Starliner farce? Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2082270 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2082273 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 16:19:39 UTC - in response to Message 2082197. ... Different capsule than the one that flew the first failed mission... What? The 'Starliner' is not reusable? Or was that first one damaged beyond repair?? Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2082273 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2082274 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 16:28:24 UTC - in response to Message 2082263. Last modified: 14 Aug 2021, 16:29:20 UTC ... Rocketdyne builds rocket propulsion systems, has since before Apollo. Damn well should know how by now. https://www.rocket.com/ Note the starliner is on their front page picture roll. ... Not for me looking there just now... Their mention of the Starliner can be found a few menu items down. See "CST-100 Starliner" to save people a few web clicks. Curiously, their last news item listed is: "Dec. 12, 2019 - Aerojet Rocketdyne Gears Up for First Flight of Boeing’s Starliner Spacecraft" ... And nothing more! Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2082274 · Reply Quote

Gary Charpentier Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29915 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32	Message 2082281 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 18:02:00 UTC - in response to Message 2082273. ... Different capsule than the one that flew the first failed mission... What? The 'Starliner' is not reusable? Or was that first one damaged beyond repair?? Fly safe folks! Martin They built three. #1 was a test vehicle, not intended to ever carry people. They are going to rotate launches with #2 and #3. If you are going to pitch bitches you should at least know basic facts. ID: 2082281 · Reply Quote

Gary Charpentier Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29915 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32	Message 2082282 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 18:04:54 UTC - in response to Message 2082274. Last modified: 14 Aug 2021, 18:14:39 UTC ... Rocketdyne builds rocket propulsion systems, has since before Apollo. Damn well should know how by now. https://www.rocket.com/ Note the starliner is on their front page picture roll. ... Not for me looking there just now... Picture number 5 of 6 on the roll. Roll as in you have to wait for them to all load or hit the tab inside the picture to select it. Of course your browser has to allow such images to load. <ed>using desktop, phone website might be different. <ed2>for people who only do talking heads https://www.youtube.com/user/AerojetRocketdyne/videos ID: 2082282 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2082309 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 22:45:36 UTC Last modified: 15 Aug 2021, 0:24:56 UTC At last! We have some clear details of the Boeing Starliner 'anomalies': Boeing Starliner Malfunction Potentially Caused by Florida’s Humid Air, Investigators Say wrote: ... resulted in the cancelation of a Starliner test launch. A promising theory suggests moisture got into the spacecraft’s propulsion system, causing critical valves to get stuck. As to how this moisture got in, however, is now a question... “The time has come for us to bring Starliner back to the factory,” John Vollmer, vice president and program manager of Boeing’s Commercial Crew Program, solemnly explained... ... Boeing worked its way through numerous fixes over the past year and a half, leading to the now indefinitely postponed Orbital Flight Test-2 (OFT-2)... ... “We’re going to go fix this problem, and we’re going to move forward,” Lueders said. “And we’re going to fly when we’re ready.” It was a “disappointing day,” she said, but “this is why the demo missions are so important.”... ... Starliner is equipped with 24 oxidation valves, 24 fuel valves, and 16 helium valves... The “most likely root cause” of the problem, said Vollmer, is that moisture somehow got onto the dry side of the oxidation valves, resulting in the formation of nitric acid. Friction from the ensuing corrosion caused the 13 valves to get stuck, according to this theory... it’s possible that atmospheric moisture somehow crept into the system and permeated the valve covers. Water splashing in from an intense storm that swept through the launch pad a day prior to the scheduled launch is likely not the source of this moisture, he added. It’s not known if a redesign is required or if preventative measures will do the trick, but it’s “certainly something that needs to be resolved,”... ... Because rockets launch from Florida all the time, engineers will have to figure out why humidity should suddenly be a problem, if this is indeed the source cause... For something so well known, tried, and tested, as maneuvering thruster systems: Shurely shome mishtake by the spreadsheet wielding accounshants?... Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2082309 · Reply Quote

betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11225 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66	Message 2082310 - Posted: 14 Aug 2021, 22:48:40 UTC - in response to Message 2082309. Nah blame Hillary ID: 2082310 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2082327 - Posted: 15 Aug 2021, 1:55:21 UTC NASASpaceFlight-Live give good fair comment about StarLiner early on in their livestream: NSF Live: Blue Origin attacks Starship with infographics, Starliner faces extended delay, and more There are consequences... Keep searchin'! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2082327 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2083365 - Posted: 30 Aug 2021, 0:39:16 UTC Last modified: 30 Aug 2021, 0:40:24 UTC Would you believe it?! Boeing makes a profit, yet... Chaos Continues at Boeing wrote: ... with major technical miscues across the enterprise... Do the management get financially penalised for any of that chaos? Are lives being put at risk by such conditions of chaos?... All in our deadly greedy world... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2083365 · Reply Quote

W-K 666 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 18324 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67	Message 2083937 - Posted: 8 Sep 2021, 8:30:51 UTC BBC - Boeing: Directors to face investor lawsuit over fatal crashes Boeing's board of directors must face a lawsuit from shareholders over two fatal crashes involving its 737 Max plane, a US judge has ruled. Morgan Zurn said the first crash was a "red flag" about a key safety system on the aircraft "that the board should have heeded but instead ignored". He said the real victims were those who died and their families but investors had also "lost billions of dollars". Boeing said it would "consider next steps". In his ruling the Delaware judge said: "While it may seem callous in the face of [the families'] losses, corporate law recognizes another set of victims: Boeing as an enterprise, and its stockholders. "Stockholders have come to this court claiming Boeing's directors and officers failed them in overseeing mission-critical airplane safety to protect enterprise and stockholder value." ID: 2083937 · Reply Quote

W-K 666 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 18324 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67	Message 2084953 - Posted: 24 Sep 2021, 23:37:31 UTC Here's hoping this link works. https://wapo.st/3AFxx8J Nearly two months after discovering a problem with its Starliner spacecraft, Boeing is still searching for answers The company is trying try to figure out why valves remain closed and it’s not clear when it might try to launch again. ID: 2084953 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2084976 - Posted: 25 Sep 2021, 15:15:09 UTC - in response to Message 2084953. Last modified: 25 Sep 2021, 15:16:45 UTC Thanks for that. That link doesn't work for me... Found this for the article: Nearly two months after discovering a problem with its Starliner spacecraft, Boeing is still searching for answers wrote: ... the company might even have to swap out the spacecraft’s service module for a new one, which would mark a significant change. As for whether Boeing would be able to attempt another launch this year, she said, “My gut [feeling] is it would probably more likely be next year.” Boeing has said little publicly about the spacecraft since it was removed from the rocket... ... “We got very close to launch without having identified the valve problem,” said George Nield, a panel member who previously oversaw the Federal Aviation Administration’s office of commercial space transportation. “Are there any changes to hardware inspection, testing, vehicle processing or checkout that would minimize the chances of that happening in the future?” He also said there “were some rather significant differences in how several safety issues were assessed between NASA and Boeing” during the flight readiness reviews. NASA, which in 2014 awarded Boeing a $4.2 billion contract to develop the capsule under the “commercial crew program,” continues to stand by Boeing... ... Boeing’s first flight attempt, in December 2019, suffered a series of problems due to software and communications issues that prevented the spacecraft from docking with the station and forcing controllers to shoot software fixes to the capsule in midflight. On that mission, the capsule’s software thought it was 11 hours later in the mission than it was. Another issue, solved on the fly, could have caused the service module to collide with the crew capsule upon separation. Boeing decided to redo the test flight before attempting a launch with astronauts... It took Boeing some 18 months to fix those problems and get the capsule back on the launchpad. Leading up to [this] launch, John Vollmer, a Boeing vice president, said this summer that he knew how high the stakes were this time. “It is of paramount importance that we have a successful flight,” he said. It didn’t. ... Ouch! (There's a lot more to the story than 'just' stuck valves...) Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2084976 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2085471 - Posted: 3 Oct 2021, 2:47:22 UTC Last modified: 3 Oct 2021, 2:48:19 UTC A brief Boeing 'update'... BOEING STARLINER Valve ISSUES remain a CHALLENGE for NASA! wrote: ... unable to solve an issue with its Starliner for more than a month. Teams of engineers and technicians from the company and as well as NASA have been working on the malfunctioning valves. Out of 13, only seven have been fixed, without the cause being discovered. George Nield, now at NASA and formerly at FAA, says that the time when the issue was discovered has raised many concerns. It could have ended up very differently and rather [disastrously] violently... Boeing FOD Debris Jams Brand New KC-46 Fuel Valve On It's Maiden Delivery Flight To Air Force Base wrote: Boeing's ongoing [foreign objects and] debris problem endangers brand new KC-46 tanker on its first delivery flight to its new home Air Force Base... Why Was Boeing’s 737 Redesign Not Scrutinized by the FAA? wrote: One of the biggest modifications made to the 737 line was the installation of a bigger engine, which changes the behavior of the plane in flight. Despite this significant change, in an apparent bid to save money, Boeing cut testing by 2000 hours... 'Problems?': "This is a profit making operation". Criminal Indictment Imminent for Former Boeing 737 MAX Chief Technical Pilot... wrote: Federal prosecutors plan to criminally indict Mark Forkner, the former Boeing 737 Chief Technical Pilot who is alleged to have deceived aviation regulators and airlines about a critical new flight control system on the 737 MAX, the Wall Street Journal reported Friday. Bringing Forkner to trial could shed more light on why the flaws in the MAX flight controls that killed 346 people in two crashes were overlooked during certification. In a Deferred Prosecution Agreement with the government in January that slapped Boeing with a relatively low fine of $244 million, the company acknowledged fraud and criminal misconduct during certification of the MAX. The agreement called out Forkner and his deputy as being involved, though it exonerated Boeing’s senior management by specifically stating that they had not facilitated the misconduct. However, Forkner’s defense is likely to try to deflect blame from him to those higher up... The deadly games in Boeing continue? Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2085471 · Reply Quote

Gary Charpentier Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29915 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32	Message 2085491 - Posted: 3 Oct 2021, 15:39:32 UTC What is the fiduciary duty to the shareholder? Does Boeing have shareholders? Why are you surprised? What part of public company don't you understand? ID: 2085491 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2086061 - Posted: 12 Oct 2021, 1:15:24 UTC - in response to Message 2085491. This is where we need to update the terms of business to move the value of people from being merely "cannon fodder" and "profit" to something of actual value deserving of considering care and well-being... There has to be profitable value in turning away from doing deadly evil... All in our deadly greedy world... Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2086061 · Reply Quote

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 18291 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 2086062 - Posted: 12 Oct 2021, 1:26:10 UTC Last modified: 12 Oct 2021, 1:27:14 UTC Boeing in the recent news: Boeing and NASA Push Starliner Test Launch to 2022 wrote: ... NASA announced that the spacecraft won't have a chance to launch until sometime in 2022 because the investigation into an issue that delayed the Orbital Flight Test-2 (OFT-2) mission in August is ongoing. OFT-2 is an uncrewed mission that will launch Starliner to the International Space Station (ISS) using the United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket. The mission was set for Aug. 3, but it was delayed because of an issue with Starliner's propulsion system, and the spacecraft was returned to the Commercial Crew and Cargo Processing Facility on Aug. 13 to investigate the problem. That investigation has continued in the months since the missed launch... ... "Boeing has identified a most probable cause related to oxidizer and moisture interactions, and although some verification work remains underway, our confidence is high enough that we are commencing corrective and preventive actions" to enable future launches. It also said "additional spacecraft and component testing will be conducted in the coming weeks to further explore contributing factors and necessary system remediation before flight," however, and Starliner won't be able to launch right away even if those tests go well... Nothing says 'We believe in you' like NASA switching two 'nauts off Boeing's Starliner onto SpaceX's Crew Dragon wrote: ... A year (or less) is, however, is long time in spaceflight and after repeated setbacks for the Starliner, it appears NASA has pulled the plug and switched Mann and Cassada to the Crew Dragon. Veteran astronauts Butch Wilmore, Mike Fincke, and Suni Williams remain attached to the project for the time being, and "will continue to provide experience for Boeing," according to the US space agency. "NASA decided it was important to make these reassignments to allow Boeing time to complete the development of Starliner,"... ... Both Mann and Cassada will now fly on [SpaceX] Crew-5, in commander and pilot roles respectively. The SpaceX mission is expected to launch in the latter part of 2022, giving a clue into just how much of a Starliner delay could be on the cards... What price is the Boeing gamble of flight hardware safely working for maintaining the good health of the passengers? What is the price for the insurance payouts that Boeing has lined up?... Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 2086062 · Reply Quote

Gary Charpentier Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 29915 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32	Message 2086071 - Posted: 12 Oct 2021, 4:59:27 UTC - in response to Message 2086061. There is capitalism and every other system that has been tried. ID: 2086071 · Reply Quote

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