Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)

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Message 2063758 - Posted: 16 Dec 2020, 23:50:13 UTC - in response to Message 2063757.  

Their executives don't care. With over 6 billion peasants on the planet, nobody will miss a few but they will miss their bonuses.

Have the Boeing board/management suffered any personal loss at all throughout this?

Even the 'sacrificed' Muilenburg gained a fabulous King's ransom for his part of the deadly games with the lives of others.

Has Muilenburg now retired richly happy?


All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin
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Message 2063832 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 3:46:44 UTC

Not just Boeing.
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Document/docBLOB?ID=11593219&FileExtension=pdf&FileName=ERA20MA001%20-%20OPS%20Factual%20Report%20-Final%20edits%20V4-Rel.pdf
The Orlando, Florida FSDO had jurisdictional oversight over the Collings Foundation.
During an interview with the Orlando FSDO office manager and assistant office manager, they indicated that prior to 2017, there was a point of contact, POC, assigned to the Collings Foundation with responsibility for answering regulatory questions but the POC did not do any ramp inspections or conduct any enroute surveillance. The POC passed away in 2017 and was not replaced by the FSDO. During the interview when asked how the Collings Foundation was to get in touch with the FSDO since there was no POC assigned, the office manager indicated, “ We have a front desk the people can call into.” The Collings foundation chief pilot stated in a conversation, that after the POC passed away, the FSDO advised them to use a general email mailbox for their correspondence with the FSDO. The Chief pilot further stated, they would send notifications that were required by their exemption letter to the general mailbox but after several of the emails and notifications were not answered, the Collings Foundation stopped using the general mailbox. As a result, the Collings Foundation operated with minimal to no FAA oversight.


Full docket https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectID=100356

As an aside I can hear the echos of the screams about how government regulation and oversight is killing business.
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Message 2063838 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 4:42:10 UTC - in response to Message 2063832.  
Last modified: 18 Dec 2020, 4:43:05 UTC

Thanks for that.


Blancolirio gives good comment as always over on:

NTSB Factual Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part I -16 Dec 2020



General note:

Most normal people are naturally lazy or over-rushed. Even badly worse so when (greedy) Management or bean-counters are involved... There have to be good procedures in place, and enforced, to avoid the inevitable costly consequences...


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2063839 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 5:46:47 UTC - in response to Message 2063838.  

Blancolirio gives good comment as always over on:

Juan will have more in part two. Spoiler, it is the magnetos., er lack of maintenance on them.
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Message 2063843 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 8:22:48 UTC - in response to Message 2063839.  

It certainly sounds like the magneto on all engines needed drying out, not just the two pairs that were dried before start.
Part two will be an interesting view when it comes out in a few days time.
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Message 2063867 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 19:18:20 UTC - in response to Message 2063843.  

It certainly sounds like the magneto on all engines needed drying out, not just the two pairs that were dried before start.

Yes, I noticed that.

#3 wouldn't start so dry out the magnetos with dry air/nitrogen. #3 then started.

Next, #4 wouldn't start so #3 was stopped and #4 magnetos dried out.

Then they started the 4 engines in sequence, power-up checks were ok, and then took off from the runway mid-section...

So, why not dry out all of the magnetos in one go?
Why not use the full runway for good safety margin?


Part two will be an interesting view when it comes out in a few days time.

I'll throw in a guess of untimely rush and complacency and running on impaired ignition?

There look to be multiple hints of a rather lax attitude to operations there...

Also, with added undue haste to minimize fuel burn costs??...


Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2063869 - Posted: 18 Dec 2020, 19:45:47 UTC

Actually only the mags on 1 & 2 were dried out, 3&4 "started normally", but did they.

I had a quick look at the report on the strip of engines 3&4 - there were a number of things that didn't look right on both engines, any or all of which could lead to loss of power (excluding things that got damaged in the accident) - plug gaps all over the place, mags not calibrated properly, signs of miss-fuelling, carburettor issues and so on, all of which point to a somewhat lax approach to maintenance. I'd love to hear what the guys who look after the Canadian Lancaster would have to say, or even Buffalo Joe.......

I suspect then answer to the question about not using the whole runway died with the pilots, but "time" was probably a factor - a Bob Dylan song comes to mind :-(
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Message 2063903 - Posted: 19 Dec 2020, 9:02:47 UTC - in response to Message 2063867.  

Here's Part II:


NTSB Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part II -18 Dec 2020



Quite a story and quite an example. Also very well and clearly detailed.

So my take on that in extreme summary is that no proper engine run up was done on the ground and that the #3 and #4 engines needed the dry air to enable the magnetos to give any ignition at all. It was then just a question of how soon before the ignition failed again... On both engines on the same side!

The common mode fault there looks to be complacency and no oversight...


Another deadly one not to be repeated...

Stay safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2063904 - Posted: 19 Dec 2020, 9:07:50 UTC
Last modified: 19 Dec 2020, 9:08:12 UTC

Continuing the problem of complacency (or worse) and of failed oversight:


737 Max: Boeing 'inappropriately coached' pilots in test after crashes
wrote:
US Senate investigators say that Boeing officials "inappropriately coached" test pilots during efforts to recertify the company's 737 Max aircraft...

... A simulator test was conducted as part of the FAA's efforts to ensure that the aircraft could be made safe to fly again. The test was designed to see how quickly pilots could react to the faulty software. In its report on Friday, the Senate committee said that based on "corroborated whistleblower information and testimony during interviews of FAA staff", it concluded that FAA and Boeing officials involved in the test had "established a pre-determined outcome to reaffirm a long-held human factor assumption related to pilot reaction time"...




In my most humble uneducated personal view:

All not a surprise at all for Boeing trying to hide the deadly surprise of the stricken pilots suffering a deadly all-too-few seconds before catastrophe...


All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin
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Message 2063906 - Posted: 19 Dec 2020, 9:13:00 UTC - in response to Message 2063904.  

... In my most humble uneducated personal view:

All not a surprise at all for Boeing trying to hide the deadly surprise of the stricken pilots suffering a deadly all-too-few seconds before catastrophe...

Meanwhile, up in the real world:


10.04.19 Typical F/O Knowledge of 738M MCAS Bulletin

(F/O = First Officer)


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Message 2063947 - Posted: 19 Dec 2020, 19:02:11 UTC - in response to Message 2063903.  

Here's Part II:
NTSB Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part II -18 Dec 2020

Quite a story and quite an example. Also very well and clearly detailed.

And here is another take
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3p-hGR3ZyY
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Message 2063954 - Posted: 19 Dec 2020, 20:46:10 UTC - in response to Message 2063947.  

Here's Part II:
NTSB Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part II -18 Dec 2020

Quite a story and quite an example. Also very well and clearly detailed.

And here is another take
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3p-hGR3ZyY

Thanks for that.

Very good commentary on the events and the human aspects.

Rather a long chain of events that, as is all too often the case, should never have happened...


Fly safe folks!
Martin
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Message 2064020 - Posted: 20 Dec 2020, 21:10:58 UTC - in response to Message 2063954.  
Last modified: 20 Dec 2020, 21:11:45 UTC

... Very good commentary on the events and the human aspects.

Rather a long chain of events that, as is all too often the case, should never have happened...

For my personal uneducated myopic opinion, upon further reflection:

One glaring aspect to that chain of events is the complete failure of the FAA for any oversight whatsoever!

With completely no peer review or any official checks, that deadly crash was pretty much guaranteed to happen sometime sooner or later.

How many 'nearly crashes' and 'unsafe incidents', likely all unreported/undocumented/unchecked, were there leading up to that?...


Fly safe folks!
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Message 2064021 - Posted: 20 Dec 2020, 21:21:17 UTC - in response to Message 2064020.  

I'm not too sure about the exact timing, but around the same time there were a couple of B25 crashes resulting in substantial damage to the aircraft. The whole "heritage aviation" industry in the USA has become very complacent, reading the factual reports on the B17 "909" crash the engine failures were just part of a bigger picture including poor intra-crew communications and the use of low/un/under qualified personnel in responsible positions.
As you say - an accident that was going to happen, it was just a matter of time before the wrong dice ended face up.
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Message 2064033 - Posted: 21 Dec 2020, 6:05:07 UTC

"I hope the public trusts in us when we say we think, we are certain, that the aircraft is safe to fly".
Really?
EASA says 737 Max safe to fly
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Message 2064251 - Posted: 24 Dec 2020, 3:12:16 UTC

Yet more of Boeing in the (non-) safety news:


Boeing Found Even More Carbon Defects In The Fuselage Of 787 Dreamliner This Month See How Bad It Is
wrote:
Boeing has broadened its inspections of 787 Dreamliners after finding more far-reaching instances of manufacturing defects...



I see it as fantastic as to the language used to downplay the deadly catastrophic potential consequences...

No reason then, behind having stopped production for a month (or so)?... Really?


All in our deadly greedy world,
Martin
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Message 2064256 - Posted: 24 Dec 2020, 6:46:35 UTC - in response to Message 2064251.  

Yet more of Boeing in the (non-) safety news:


Boeing Found Even More Carbon Defects In The Fuselage Of 787 Dreamliner This Month See How Bad It Is wrote:

Boeing has broadened its inspections of 787 Dreamliners after finding more far-reaching instances of manufacturing defects...

Ask Mike Patey if carbon fiber is easy.
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Message 2064548 - Posted: 29 Dec 2020, 14:11:40 UTC

American Airlines Flight 718, scheduled to leave Miami just after 10:30 a.m. and land in New York at 1:30 p.m. the plane is a 737 Max.
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL718
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Message 2065167 - Posted: 7 Jan 2021, 22:59:37 UTC

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/boeing-charged-737-max-fraud-conspiracy-and-agrees-pay-over-25-billion
Department of Justice
Office of Public Affairs
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, January 7, 2021
Boeing Charged with 737 Max Fraud Conspiracy and Agrees to Pay over $2.5 Billion
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Message 2065194 - Posted: 8 Jan 2021, 11:03:39 UTC - in response to Message 2065167.  
Last modified: 8 Jan 2021, 11:05:38 UTC

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/boeing-charged-737-max-fraud-conspiracy-and-agrees-pay-over-25-billion
Department of Justice
Office of Public Affairs
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Thursday, January 7, 2021
Boeing Charged with 737 Max Fraud Conspiracy and Agrees to Pay over $2.5 Billion

Wow! What!!?

Phew!

That one has been sneaked out on an extremely busy news day!! Can't imagine a better day to burrow that behind all the other immediate world news to hide it away!

That $2.5 Billion is quite a "buy yourself out of jail" card!

... The criminal information charges the company with one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States. Under the terms of the DPA, Boeing will pay a total criminal monetary amount of over $2.5 billion, composed of a criminal monetary penalty of $243.6 million, compensation payments to Boeing’s 737 MAX airline customers of $1.77 billion, and the establishment of a $500 million crash-victim beneficiaries fund to compensate the heirs, relatives, and legal beneficiaries of the 346 passengers who died in the Boeing 737 MAX crashes of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302.

“The tragic crashes of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 exposed fraudulent and deceptive conduct by employees...

... evidence that Boeing was obligated to produce, such cooperation, however, was delayed and only began after the first six months of the Fraud Section’s investigation, during which time Boeing’s response frustrated the Fraud Section’s investigation...

... (i) the misconduct was neither pervasive across the organization, nor undertaken by a large number of employees, nor facilitated by senior management; (ii) although two of Boeing’s 737 MAX Flight Technical Pilots deceived the FAA AEG about MCAS by way of misleading statements, half-truths, and omissions, others in Boeing disclosed MCAS’s expanded operational scope to different FAA personnel who were responsible for determining whether the 737 MAX met U.S. federal airworthiness standards;...


Unfortunately, to my personal uneducated humble view, that reads as though the (ir)responsible management have successfully sacrificed and scapegoated their underlings...

Very deadly greedy...


For myself, I ain't flying anything Boeing for some long time yet. I value my life.

Fly safe folks!
Martin
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Message boards : Politics : Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)


 
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