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Boeing: Profits 1st, Safety 2nd? (Part 3)
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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30923 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
But, I have two words to say on the earthing discussion: "Ground Loop" Had to have two words too. Large power currents on shields and signal ground leads. Always a good thing! |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Large power currents on shields and signal ground leads. Hence there is the good design practice of ensuring that there is guaranteed and testable ground bonding (and that can be to multiple points that are all electrically bonded together,) to ensure that the ground reference voltage stays clamped at zero Volts for all the equipment. Anything inferior to that causes very unexpected 'strange' problems as implied by your example. For audio equipment for incorrect grounding, you might only get the annoyance of the sound of mains hum. Whereas for critical electrical/electronic control equipment such as on an aircraft, with bad electrical grounding you can very possibly die. Also note that good electrical grounding is vital for the aircraft equipment (and hence the aircraft) to survive a lightning strike... Fly safe folks! Martin Edit: Grammar See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24905 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
There's really too few real criminals in prison......They're in power instead. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19310 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
U.S. requires inspections for wire failure on Boeing 737 Classic planes Reuters - The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said on Friday it was requiring U.S. operators of 143 Boeing Co (BA.N) 737 Classic series airplanes to check for possible wire failures stemming from an investigation into an Indonesia crash in January. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19310 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Boeing to pay $17 million to settle plane production issues AP - Federal officials say Boeing will pay at least $17 million and take steps to fix production problems on its 737 jets, including the Max. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Thanks for that. That article lists a very scary litany of faults covering hundreds of planes. Yet their share price rose 4%?!... Personally, I very much doubt they have "resolved all production 'issues'" safely, regardless of whatever placatory words their PR spokesperson utters... Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30923 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit Yet their share price rose 4%?!...https://www.investors.com/news/boeing-stock-top-737-customer-southwest-needs-hundreds-more-planes/ |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit Thanks for that. Crazy stuff... I wonder if there are any clauses in the the purchase for the Boeing execs to personally compensate all those affected for any further corner cutting catastrophes? Then the question is what will kill more passengers: The Boeing 737 or the facilitated increase in the spread of COVID? My personal jaundiced guess is that there will be no effective mitigation added to the aircraft aircon... (Such as increased airflow or UV sterilization in the air ducts...) Fly safe? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19310 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit Probably because the person setting the fine didn't understand the difference between Millions and Billions, and didn't put in the final three zero's. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30923 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Of the Profit, by the Profit, for the Profit You assume too much. The person who didn't understand is the legislator who wrote the law that sets the maximum fine at a number that would make a natural person bankrupt but isn't even pocket change for a publicly traded company. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Boeing stays in the news... Boeing Charged Japan 1,500% Markup on Part, Air Force Says wrote: Boeing Co. charged the Japanese government an “excessive” price for some spare parts for its refueling tanker plane, as much as 16 times more than the U.S. Air Force paid for its latest versions, according to a service assessment... Boeing's Latest 737 MAX Crisis Eases wrote: The aircraft manufacturer is resuming 737 MAX deliveries after the latest pause, but Boeing isn't out of the woods yet... The $15 billion jet dilemma facing Boeing’s CEO wrote: Boeing Co CEO Dave Calhoun faces a multibillion-dollar dilemma over how to rebuild sales... From my personal view and perspective, greedily cutting corners and inglorious price gouging has deadly expensive consequences. How strong is the incentive for airline operators to use non-Boeing (and non-certified) parts for the sake of silly prices?... How many planes for how long have been flying without adequate protection for the electrical equipment for the sake of proper robust design and manufacture and quality assurance checking?... Is Boeing going to leap into another 737MAX-style panic development on-the-cheap to compete?... Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19310 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
... The 737 MAX's latest problem stemmed from a trivial change to the manufacturing process for "two cabinets or racks that hold electronic equipment on the MAX flight deck," ... A decision to apply primer after holes were fully drilled -- rather than before -- impeded the racks' ability to serve as an electrical grounding path... WHAT. trivial!!!! There are lots of Boeing people that do NOT understand grounding paths if they think it is trivial. There is nothing wrong in painting the holes after drilling, because, you should NEVER rely on that path to ground. Electronic cabinet racks are frequently mounted on anti-vibration mounts especially when in machines that vibrate. They are made with a big block of rubber, never known to be a conductor of electricity. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30923 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Strap from fuselage to rack rail to bypass that vibration mount.... The 737 MAX's latest problem stemmed from a trivial change to the manufacturing process for "two cabinets or racks that hold electronic equipment on the MAX flight deck," ... A decision to apply primer after holes were fully drilled -- rather than before -- impeded the racks' ability to serve as an electrical grounding path... Engineer #1 every pound in excess weight costs the customer $10,000.00 in jet fuel over the life of the plane, strip excess weight every place you can. Engineer #2 every screw/rivet hole that isn't filled with primer is the start of a corrosion problem Engineer #3 as long as the rivet holes don't have primer we can ground through the rack and not have a separate grounding strap saving a pound for each piece of equipment. Worker #1 We are out of rivets and sales is screaming to meet a deadline, no reason we can't use a nut, bolt and safety wire, we have lots of them. Every single one of them is absolutely correct. Every single one of them is absolutely wrong. This is how the Swiss cheese aligns. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
WHAT. And there's the deadly point... The assembly actions to cause a deadly fault in that example of fragile design/implementation are trivial, yet, as we know, the consequences are deadly. All exacerbated by cheaply deskilling the workforce so that the pressured harassed abused overworked zombies putting the pieces together use no thought processes to check what they are doing. Worse still, for this example, using the rivet fixing as a 'sneaky' grounding path is hidden secret knowledge that noone else will see or know about... Until disaster is caused. Which is where for that example, such practices must be regulated against and enforced at the design stage. Hence, equipment must be explicitly designed in with grounding that is explicitly marked and is testable. Anything less is a design and manufacture trap waiting to kill. However... Hopes of ignorantly greedy profit falsely cuts the corners into a disaster... This is NOT rocket science either! For this example, Boeing and the passengers and crew flying on those hundreds of impacted planes have been very 'lucky'... Fly safe folks? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
... For this example, Boeing and the passengers and crew flying on those hundreds of impacted planes have been very 'lucky'... Can those people sue Boeing for having had their lives negligently endangered? Fly safe folks? Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Expensively blundering and bumbling along?... Deadly expensive? Another Boeing-Airbus tanker war is coming soon wrote: Boeing and Airbus could find themselves duking it out as early as next year to provide aerial refueling aircraft to the U.S. Air Force, reigniting a bitter battle between Boeing’s KC-46 and Airbus’s A330 Multi Role Tanker Transport. FAA mandates inspection checks on Boeing 737 MAX flight-control system wrote: The Federal Aviation Administration released a directive Thursday requiring airlines to do regular maintenance checks of the flight-control software on Boeing’s 737 MAX and to periodically test the operation of cutoff switches the pilots use if system failures occur... Ryanair's first Boeing Max jet to arrive in Dublin today wrote: RYANAIR will today take delivery of its first Boeing Max jet after a more than two-year delay following two deadly crashes involving the aircraft type... Whatever deadly short term greedy profit was gained has now been long lost in the deadly consequences. Yet, the deadly silliness continues? Really? The Boeing 737 MAX flight control system is too much of an unreliable unknown not to require repeated external testing to see if it still seems to work well enough? I really hope those tests are full and complete "end-to-end" tests! (Unlike as was nearly fatally not done for the Boeing "Star Liner" flight test...) For myself, I'm not flying the Boeing MAX under any circumstances other than if already dead. At the cost and risk of who's lives?... Fly safe folks!! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30923 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Really? The Boeing 737 MAX flight control system is too much of an unreliable unknown not to require repeated external testing to see if it still seems to work well enough? WOW! You mean you shouldn't have to test a mechanical switch to see if it works? WOW! You need this https://www.youtube.com/user/UGOT2CTHIS Dan will teach you about the number one cause. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Really? The Boeing 737 MAX flight control system is too much of an unreliable unknown not to require repeated external testing to see if it still seems to work well enough? I mean really, there is so little trust in that flight system? My safety-critical training demands that safety critical systems are guaranteed to fail safely, and that all aspects of operation are proven safe. My personal take on the Boeing way of design is that their flight systems 'hopefully work well enough' and we give the pilots an electrical switch to switch off the power if things go 'unexpected'. Letting that sort of ad-hoc design go flying with hundreds of lives dependent upon a pilot instantly flipping a "do not die yet" switch AND still successfully flying the plane without that flight system functionality is the crazy big WOW-WHAT-THE-HELL!!! For such a desperate last moment get-out-of-death system, safest is to never have that switch switched on! You need this https://www.youtube.com/user/UGOT2CTHIS Dan will teach you about the number one cause. Not my choice of channel. I prefer the level-headed reporting from such as blancolirio and AVweb. They give a good reminder of the importance of allowing the pilots to simply fly the aircraft, rather than being left bewildered and overloaded in a cockpit of deadly confusion... How many false alarms were triggered by a singular point of failure in the Boeing 737 that left two flight crews fatally bewildered?... Has that been redesigned and fully safely fixed?... Do we add a third Boeing 737 flight crew to that list for the latest 'everyone-dead' crash off Indonesia? Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30923 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
For such a desperate last moment get-out-of-death system, safest is to never have that switch switched on!So no fuses or circuit breakers. No fuel shutoff valves. Wonderful engineering. BTW Juan Brown likes Dan Gryder. Dan just doesn't hold back on the number one cause, like most everyone else and the NTSB never ever says the number one cause. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20966 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
For such a desperate last moment get-out-of-death system, safest is to never have that switch switched on!So no fuses or circuit breakers. No fuel shutoff valves. Wonderful engineering. There is a world of difference between systems that are positively working to maintain safe flight, as opposed to systems that are idle yet can unexpectedly catastrophically kill that flight... There is supposed to be enforced the design doctrine that aircraft systems must fail safely or must fail to a benign state... Something that instead has to be actively turned off to avoid deadly catastrophe for normal flight is an inherently deadly design... Your example there of a fuel shut-off is a very good safety feature that is only ever to be used either only whilst safely on the ground or only until AFTER some catastrophe has already happened... BTW Juan Brown likes Dan Gryder. Dan just doesn't hold back on the number one cause, like most everyone else and the NTSB never ever says the number one cause. Indeed, there is a world of difference in the expense of merely training a pilot to fly vs the extra time needed training a pilot to fly for other than normal conditions... Myself, I was taught to drive by a police driving instructor. At the time I was annoyed that I was taken through extra lessons (and lesson fees) to learn aspects somewhat beyond what the driving test required. Ok, so that made for an easy driving test. The real payback has been in much reduced insurance costs due to that training paying off greatly for various 'events' out on the road in the real world. Similarly, I learnt to fly fixed wing aircraft at an RAF airfield. That was quite an experience for the 'ways of the military' that again is initially hard but usefully good. And then we have where that 'extra' initial cost good safe sense might be dangerously neglected for the sake of greedy short term profit and ignorance... Unless such 'additional' training is made a requirement...? Fly safe folks! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
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