Profits 1st, Safety 2nd?

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moomin
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Message 1988978 - Posted: 5 Apr 2019, 23:02:48 UTC - in response to Message 1988974.  

Gary,
Look again for the 737 Max...
I would say look for Boeing 737 Max 8 and later models.
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Message 1988991 - Posted: 6 Apr 2019, 0:01:11 UTC - in response to Message 1988763.  

Ethiopian Airlines stated that the crew had been trained on the MCAS system after the Lion Air crash on the new procedures for the 737 Max which were released and mandated to be trained before flying by government regulators.

That doesn't mean that the training they got was correct, that will have to be determined.
A report from the Ethiopian authorities issued on Thursday said the pilots of flight ET302 "repeatedly" followed procedures recommended by Boeing before the crash.



Boeing reduces 737 production
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Message 1988996 - Posted: 6 Apr 2019, 1:03:58 UTC - in response to Message 1988974.  

Gary,

Look again for the 737 Max...

They didn't change the tail. Haven't changed tails on airplanes in nearly a century. (Yes there are some other designs, but the 737 series doesn't use them)
As said, you very obviously have never sat in a pilot seat. I also suggest you stop listening to sensationalist news reporters who also have never sat in a pilot's seat.
Let me point you here https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=78677&postid=1988959
They turned trim off. Problem solved.
Different problem, the manual control for trim was stuck. Uh, didn't they do a controls free and rigged properly ground check before they took off? Missing a checklist item is how many a pilot kills themselves.
Inexplicably they turned a known faulty system back on and it continued to be faulty and add to the second problem.

If you had ever bothered to study flight, you would be shocked at the number of incident reports there are about some item in the cabin getting wedged and preventing a control from being operated, or suddenly operating a control. One of the reasons before flight you check that all flight controls operate freely and move the thing they are supposed to - nothing else - and in the direction it is supposed to go. And you also make sure the charts, manuals, flight plan, books and your coffee cup are secured and clear of the controls. We will never know if this the the cause of the second problem.
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Message 1988997 - Posted: 6 Apr 2019, 1:07:27 UTC

The way that it was explained by an expert on TV here a couple of days ago is that 1 breaker switch reboots the MCAS system (obviously the 1 the pilots were using), but it takes a 2nd breaker switch to be pulled to then totally isolate the MCAS system and it is possible that this breaker switch wasn't used (but until the flight data is released that is only a possibility).

Cheers.
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Message 1989002 - Posted: 6 Apr 2019, 2:12:47 UTC - in response to Message 1988996.  

Uh, didn't they do a controls free and rigged properly ground check before they took off? Missing a checklist item is how many a pilot kills themselves.
I have to ask, Gary.
Have you checked the checklist that Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots have to their disposal.
A checklist that also include how to turn off the anti-stall system?
Most pilots seems to have one but there are also pilots that are totally unaware of such add-ons.
And how many of the pilots have tested this in a flight simulator?
Scary I would say...
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Message 1989047 - Posted: 7 Apr 2019, 4:29:19 UTC

Dear moomin, If there is a system such as electric trim (MCAS is electric trim) there is a checklist item on how to turn it off if it misbehaves. If the airline is profitable and wants to stay profitable every aircrew will be run through every emergency procedure in the book/checklist on a simulator before their logbook is endorsed to fly that type of aircraft. Not every airline wants to stay profitable, some are in it for short term money and don't put safety first. Colgan air comes to mind.

As to the controls check, that is dead basic checklist, if it flies that is on the checklist!
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Message 1989050 - Posted: 7 Apr 2019, 4:47:36 UTC

my isp to fix a sinking 40 year old box.....on the edge of my yard.
duck tape the wiring and to the ground rods. put some no compact gravel in it
also i had to use zip ties to keep box shut to.
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Message 1989098 - Posted: 7 Apr 2019, 10:30:07 UTC - in response to Message 1989047.  
Last modified: 7 Apr 2019, 10:37:09 UTC

Well, Boeing, the FAA and the pilots seems to have different opinons about safety...

Boeing promoted 737 MAX as requiring little additional pilot training
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/22/politics/boeing-737-manual/index.html
Pilots at American Airlines, who are represented by APA, and Southwest Airlines, who are represented by a different union, moved from older versions of the 737 to the MAX by taking an online course that lasted between 56 minutes and three hours, according to union spokesmen.
That training included some differences between the two-plane series but did not explain MCAS, they said.
"MCAS was installed in the aircraft and Boeing didn't disclose that to the pilots," Mike Trevino, a spokesman for the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, told CNN.
From the flight manual to automation, why pilots have complained about Boeing's 737 MAX 8
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/03/13/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-voiced-safety-concerns-before-ethiopia-crash/3145393002/
“The fact that this airplane requires such jury rigging to fly is a red flag,” that captain – who was not identified by name – wrote in a report to the federal Aviation Safety Reporting System. The captain said part of the plane’s flight system was “not described in our Flight Manual.”
Records show that federal aviation authorities received at least 11 reports concerning the Boeing 737 MAX 8 from professional aviators logged from April 2018 to December 2018.
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Message 1989226 - Posted: 7 Apr 2019, 23:59:27 UTC

Cause, bird strike 12 seconds into flight
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-insi/how-excess-speed-hasty-commands-and-flawed-software-doomed-an-ethiopian-airlines-737-max-idUSKCN1RH0FJ
Sources who reviewed the crash data said the problems started barely 12 seconds after take-off. A sudden data spike suggests a bird hit the plane as it was taking off and sheared away a vital airflow sensor.

Second cause, not pulling back on the throttles
Flying faster than recommended, the crew struggled with MCAS. But the high speed made it nearly impossible to use the controls to pull the nose up.
The airline’s youngest-ever captain, a 29-year-old with an impressive 8,100 hours flying time, and his rookie 25-year-old co-pilot may have made a crucial mistake by leaving the engines at full take-off power, according to data and other pilots.
By the end, the aircraft was traveling at 500 knots (575 mph, 926 kph), far beyond its design limits.
“Power being left in take-off power while leveling off at that speed is not a normal procedure,” said one U.S. pilot, who declined to be named because he was not authorized to speak to the media. “I can’t imagine a scenario where you’d need to do that.”


It is never just one cause, it is always a chain of events.
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Message 1989238 - Posted: 8 Apr 2019, 1:14:28 UTC - in response to Message 1989226.  

It is never just one cause, it is always a chain of events.
Yes. That's why pilot's need flight simulator training and also giving a complete aircraft flight manual (AFM) for the model the pilots are supposed to fly, that include all systems that is necessary for a safe flight.
737 Max flight manual may have left MCAS information on 'cutting room floor'
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-737-manual-mcas-system-plane-crash-1.5065842
An online description on the Internet is not enough!
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Message 1989345 - Posted: 9 Apr 2019, 2:30:54 UTC
Last modified: 9 Apr 2019, 2:40:38 UTC

This headline from the NYT possibly say's it all, Boeing’s 737 Max: 1960s Design, 1990s Computing Power and Paper Manuals

Still relies on cables and hydraulics, not computer controlled fly-by-wire, and computers not powerful enough to aid the pilots with check lists, cross-checked so that no steps are missed, or fault detection and guidance.

All so that there is no costly re-certification, and therefore there is no expensive long simulator training.
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Message 1989358 - Posted: 9 Apr 2019, 4:40:09 UTC - in response to Message 1989345.  

This headline from the NYT possibly say's it all, Boeing’s 737 Max: 1960s Design, 1990s Computing Power and Paper Manuals

Still relies on cables and hydraulics, not computer controlled fly-by-wire, and computers not powerful enough to aid the pilots with check lists, cross-checked so that no steps are missed, or fault detection and guidance.

All so that there is no costly re-certification, and therefore there is no expensive long simulator training.

https://www.ravepubs.com/250-million-epic-fail-wonders-fly-wire/
It is critical to recognize that in these systems, like any other “automation” system for any industry, product or function, the millions of lines of extremely complex software code and algorithms built into the systems are written by programmers, not pilots or audio professionals. Therefore it is possible that unusual situations can occur that a pilot (or experienced audio pro) could handle, but the automated systems simply don’t know how to react. It is now known from the BEA (the French equivalent of the NTSB) report that the Air-France 449 crash over the south Atlantic was due to a situation like this. That report stated, “In the case of Air France 449 for example, once the loss of speed and altitude data from the external sensors occurred, within seconds, the main flight computers ceased to function properly, while the flight-control computer system ‘no longer considered as valid’ the data being delivered to it. After that, its processors started to crash.”
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Message 1989362 - Posted: 9 Apr 2019, 6:47:35 UTC - in response to Message 1989358.  

This headline from the NYT possibly say's it all, Boeing’s 737 Max: 1960s Design, 1990s Computing Power and Paper Manuals

Still relies on cables and hydraulics, not computer controlled fly-by-wire, and computers not powerful enough to aid the pilots with check lists, cross-checked so that no steps are missed, or fault detection and guidance.

All so that there is no costly re-certification, and therefore there is no expensive long simulator training.

https://www.ravepubs.com/250-million-epic-fail-wonders-fly-wire/
It is critical to recognize that in these systems, like any other “automation” system for any industry, product or function, the millions of lines of extremely complex software code and algorithms built into the systems are written by programmers, not pilots or audio professionals. Therefore it is possible that unusual situations can occur that a pilot (or experienced audio pro) could handle, but the automated systems simply don’t know how to react. It is now known from the BEA (the French equivalent of the NTSB) report that the Air-France 449 crash over the south Atlantic was due to a situation like this. That report stated, “In the case of Air France 449 for example, once the loss of speed and altitude data from the external sensors occurred, within seconds, the main flight computers ceased to function properly, while the flight-control computer system ‘no longer considered as valid’ the data being delivered to it. After that, its processors started to crash.”

My understanding of the Flight 449 crash was that the autopilot disengaged correctly and it was pilot error that caused the crash.
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Message 1989380 - Posted: 10 Apr 2019, 1:00:16 UTC - in response to Message 1989362.  

This headline from the NYT possibly say's it all, Boeing’s 737 Max: 1960s Design, 1990s Computing Power and Paper Manuals

Still relies on cables and hydraulics, not computer controlled fly-by-wire, and computers not powerful enough to aid the pilots with check lists, cross-checked so that no steps are missed, or fault detection and guidance.

All so that there is no costly re-certification, and therefore there is no expensive long simulator training.

https://www.ravepubs.com/250-million-epic-fail-wonders-fly-wire/
It is critical to recognize that in these systems, like any other “automation” system for any industry, product or function, the millions of lines of extremely complex software code and algorithms built into the systems are written by programmers, not pilots or audio professionals. Therefore it is possible that unusual situations can occur that a pilot (or experienced audio pro) could handle, but the automated systems simply don’t know how to react. It is now known from the BEA (the French equivalent of the NTSB) report that the Air-France 449 crash over the south Atlantic was due to a situation like this. That report stated, “In the case of Air France 449 for example, once the loss of speed and altitude data from the external sensors occurred, within seconds, the main flight computers ceased to function properly, while the flight-control computer system ‘no longer considered as valid’ the data being delivered to it. After that, its processors started to crash.”

My understanding of the Flight 449 crash was that the autopilot disengaged correctly and it was pilot error that caused the crash.

Yes, and "cables and hydraulics" are all that is left when that happens.
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Message 1989449 - Posted: 10 Apr 2019, 10:48:41 UTC

Talking to a 737 pilot the other day - he was in the middle of "transiting" to the Max when all this lot broke loose, and has now done a few hours on a Max simulator...
The Max is, control stick-wise very similar to the NG and "classic" 737, but, and a big but...
When the angle of attack indicators get out of kilter one of two things happen VERY quickly, depending on what the "pilot flying" side unit is doing. One way round the MCAS system will push the nose DOWN, and if this happens at low altitude it can be "quite hairy". If it's the other way round then it is less hairy, but the plane may enter a "real" stall situation, where there are other systems that will help recover. If the MCAS system is TURNED OFF, then the crew can ONLY use the trim wheels to regain control (there is no power to the electric trim screw, so the control column toggles don't work), which become VERY heavy quite rapidly. Also, when the MCAS is isolated there appears to be much less power assistance for the crew, and this only get's worse as the speed increases.
All told, this is not a good situation for a pilot to be in.
Further, when comparing the 737-MAX with other airliners, it would appear that the 737-MAX is a bit deficient in its implementation. For example, the B-777 (and B-787?) has a similar system, but has a different voting system between the two angle of attack sensors with much tighter tolerances before declaring a system fault, and then announcing a fault; Airbus, on their A32x series they have three sensors and do a "proper" vote between them.
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Message 1990099 - Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 2:40:16 UTC

News on WaPo says that
American Airlines cancels 737 Max flights through Aug. 19
, and in the report it adds that
Southwest Airlines, the other U.S. airline that has 737 Max 8 jets, also has canceled flights involving the aircraft through Aug. 5.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/04/14/american-airlines-cancels-max-flights-until-aug/?utm_term=.56007241f5df
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Message 1990121 - Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 6:53:40 UTC - in response to Message 1990099.  

I've got a USA internal flight booked on American Airlines for mid-July. The booking says it's on a 737-800 (with no mention of Max). On Wednesday last week, they emailed me to say that the take-off time had been changed, and the flight time had been extended. I'm not a frequent flyer, so I don't know how common this is - but it feels like there was already some frantic paddling going on under the water, extending beyond the public Max grounding period.
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Message 1990124 - Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 7:23:09 UTC - in response to Message 1990121.  
Last modified: 15 Apr 2019, 7:24:18 UTC

I am going to assume that the airlines have been burning the midnight oil and had the spring/summer schedules re-worked on the assumption that the Max variants might be grounded for some time. And if they are cleared in that time they can be used to cover the breakdowns etc.

Or, it could be that their spies contacts have uncovered information that suggests the safety solutions and demands of foreign regulators might take a long time to implement.
Plus there is this for them to consider.
Sen. Edward J. Markey (D-Mass.) introduced legislation Thursday that would bar aircraft manufacturers such as Boeing from charging additional fees for safety equipment that carriers may want but that the companies consider optional.

“For Boeing, safety features that could have saved 346 lives on two of their 737 Max 8s were yet another profit center, deemed optional like premium seats, extra bathrooms, or fancy lighting,” Markey said. “Aviation safety cannot be a luxury that is bought and sold for an extra fee, but a standard part of our fleets, ingrained in every bolt, sensor, and line of code on an aircraft. The ‘Safety is Not for Sale Act’ will ensure that all safety-enhancing equipment is never sold as a la carte add-ons.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2019/04/11/markey-introduces-bill-bar-aircraft-manufacturers-charging-additional-fees-safety-features-boeing-did/
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Message 1990125 - Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 8:28:28 UTC

American Airlines flight delayed/extended?..... 100% of the AA (internal) flights I've been on have been delayed or extended long before I got to the airport :-(
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Message 1990126 - Posted: 15 Apr 2019, 8:39:22 UTC - in response to Message 1990125.  

I'd only booked it three weeks earlier, and departure was brought forward, not delayed - a trivial amount, and made no difference to my plans. But it didn't seem like a normal procedure.
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