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Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14672 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Another name came up today that I hadn't heard for a while., in connection with the Lakanal House fire (2009, Camberwell, six dead). There was an inquest, but no public enquiry - and the inquest report ended up on the desk of Eric Pickles, then Communities Secretary. Eric Pickles was elected conservative leader for Bradford City Council in the late 1980s and early 1990s. (Declaration of interest: I sued the council under his regime, and had to settle for £5,000 damages - which meant that I lost the chance to have the issue aired in court). Eric Pickles was not a popular leader, and was known as a proponent of Margaret Thatcher's ideas on privatisation and deregulation. Apparently nothing was done with the Lakanal inquest report. I hope the new public enquiry looks into the role of the Communities Secretary then. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/15/experts-warned-government-against-cladding-material-used-on-grenfell At least one other London tower block has been refurbished using the same Reynobond aluminium cladding system used on Grenfell Tower. A planning application to renovate Clements Court in Hounslow, which has 13 storeys, was made in 2008. Planning application documents filed with the council detail plans to provide the building with a rainproof cladding, using the Reynobond brand of panels. Is mineral wool expensive? Sounds very weird to me. Do they mean this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_wool or http://www.rockwool.se/ Advantages of ROCKWOOL insulation Rockwool is much cheaper than mineral wool. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19308 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Reality Check: Why don't all high-rises have sprinklers? Regulations in England mean that only buildings constructed since 2007 and which are taller than 30m are required to have sprinklers fitted. This requirement wasn't applied retroactively so did not apply to Grenfell Tower, which was built in 1974. And the punch line In 2015, a spokesman for the Chief Fire Officers Association said that nobody had ever died in a fire in the UK in a property with a "properly installed sprinkler system working the way it's meant to". @Richard, The Lakanal House fire is mentioned Sir Ken Knight, the author of a report on the Lakanal House fire, said that while there was significant evidence of the effectiveness of systems such as sprinklers controlling fire spread in buildings, it was not considered "practical or economically viable" to enforce the retrospective fitting of fire suppression systems to all current high-rise residential buildings. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14672 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
@Richard,My comment was about fire precautions and building regulations in general, not about single issues like sprinklers. Let's state the bleedin' obvious. For a fire to start and spread, it needs two things: fuel and oxygen. Oxygen is all around us, and by itself causes no problems. There have been discussions about the "chimney effect": that can replenish the oxygen used up in a fire, if fire breaks are not installed. But I'm more concerned by the fuel: there was clearly fuel present on the outside of that building. It was wrapped up like a christmas parcel. Either the fuel was present in the cladding, or it was present in the insulation hidden behind the cladding, or both. I'm getting the impression that building regulations are late, and prohibitive: anything is allowed until and unless it's forbidden. That's the same as the position until recently with 'legal highs' in the illicit drug trade. Are fuel-containing claddings the legal high of the building trade? According to the BBC paper review, the Times has calculated that the price difference between fuel-laden cladding (plastic composite) and fuel-free cladding (mineral composite) would have been less than £5,000 for the whole building. That puts the price of a human life at around the £50 level. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19308 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
What it all adds up to is for less than £1/week from the rent of each flat, the building could have been clad safer, had a sprinkler system installed and lighting in the emergency stairwell. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The police in London find that the identification work of the dead can not only linger - but may be almost impossible. The death rate is expected to rise radically - as many as 100 people are feared having lost their lives in the fire, reports the British media. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
I can't see this inquiry being speedy as many are requesting. It's going to be brutal with plenty of CYA & pass the buck. A tale of two tower blocks Empty properties should be seized Blame game starts |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
I can't see this inquiry being speedy as many are requesting. Me neither. Too many companies and people involved to inquire in this tragedy:( Probably will take years. And by that time many of them are not responsible any longer... |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Police launch criminal inquiry... ...& this is going to help that inquiry "Writing in the Guardian, David Lammy, the Labour MP for Tottenham, said that arrests and prosecutions should follow the deadly blaze. “Don’t let them tell you it’s a tragedy. It’s not a tragedy – it’s a monstrous crime. Corporate manslaughter. They were warned by the residents that there was an obvious risk of catastrophe. They looked the other way,†he wrote. " |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building? But was it? |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14672 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
That was four years ago - I don't recall any disastrous fires in between times?Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building?But was it? If any electrical device failed, fire would still have had to cross the gap. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Police launch criminal inquiry... I think we already know what caused the tragedy. But who are to blame? Nah. This will take years. And if they convict somebodies. What will the verdict be? |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
That was four years ago - I don't recall any disastrous fires in between times?Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building?But was it? You missed the point completely. Residents had to force the TMO to take action. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36311 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
That was four years ago - I don't recall any disastrous fires in between times?Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building?But was it? It could've just as easily have been some wacker/s cooking drugs as well a hoarder who's stash spontaneously combusted or several idiotic reasons as to what started it and we may never know the truth because the evidence has been totally destroyed. Cheers. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
...we may never know the truth because the evidence has been totally destroyed. I think not. Most likely the cause that started the fire will be known pretty soon. The failed fridge/freezer seems to be a red herring to me. I go for someone who cooked food in the middle of night and forgot to check whats happening in the kitchen. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14672 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
In which case, the point you were trying to make is a long way away from the line you selected from my earlier post.You missed the point completely.That was four years ago - I don't recall any disastrous fires in between times?Big question for me: how did the fire cross from the alleged source - failed fridge/freezer in a fourth floor flat - to the cladding/insulation on the outside of the building?But was it? Yes, a 'power surge' (never quite sure what those are, but I have experienced an earthing failure on a 3-phase building installation which presented 440 volts between live and neutral) could cause an electrical item such as a fridge/freezer to fail. I would, however, have expected multiple reports of similar electrical failures in other flats by now. Four years ago, the modernisation hadn't taken place, and there was no cladding/insulation to conduct flames across the face of the building and into other flats. So, can you produce a quote which says that the 'power surges' (however explained in electrical terms) continued after the cladding was applied? That indeed might go to the heart of the matter. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36311 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Deep frying the old "fish'n'chips" and then getting distracted, then throwing water on the resulting fire sprang to my mind. ;-) Cheers. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14672 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Which is a hazard known in the UK for a century or more. So, how would it turn into a complete building inferno?I go for someone who cooked food in the middle of night and forgot to check whats happening in the kitchen.Deep frying the old "fish'n'chips" and then getting distracted, then throwing water on the resulting fire sprang to my mind. ;-) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30914 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Which is a hazard known in the UK for a century or more. So, how would it turn into a complete building inferno?I go for someone who cooked food in the middle of night and forgot to check whats happening in the kitchen.Deep frying the old "fish'n'chips" and then getting distracted, then throwing water on the resulting fire sprang to my mind. ;-) Open window and curtains, cladding. |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14672 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Open window and curtains...... on a warm summer's evening. We've all been there, except possibly the cladding designer. |
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