Middle East Timebomb

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Message 1581443 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 11:36:30 UTC

As seen in previous threads regarding the current situation in the Middle East, there seems to be no end in sight. However, what is happening is that it is sucking in more & more nations...

Turkey vows to prevent Kobane from falling

Australia approves strikes on IS

Who's next to join in?
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Message 1581505 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 14:51:50 UTC - in response to Message 1581469.  

Obama's 'Effort' is now being called 'Shock and Yawn'

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/ralph-peters-shock-yawn-isis/2014/10/02/id/598353/

Typical Obama.


Fixed the link for you.
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Message 1581525 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 15:48:39 UTC - in response to Message 1581505.  

Obama's 'Effort' is now being called 'Shock and Yawn'

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/ralph-peters-shock-yawn-isis/2014/10/02/id/598353/

Typical Obama.


Fixed the link for you.

No, that's just to "sleepwalk" the citizens into on-going military actions to boost the profits of the Arms & Oil industries...

Troops face "generational struggle"

...we've had this so far: - "But the coalition has accepted this will be a long war, measured in months or years rather than weeks." And now this: - "Mr Cameron said the actions of groups like Islamic State (IS) in Iraq and Syria and Boko Haram in Nigeria showed there remains a long battle ahead."

The problem with that is his SDR, just where is the manpower and weaponry going to come from? With this country's deficit, where is the money going to come from?

It has money to burn as this proves that: - "Mr Cameron said the UK would continue to support the Afghan National Officer academy and would provide £178m a year, until 2017, to "sustain the major progress" the country had made on public services like health and education."

Islam is rich enough, so why isn't it providing that aid themselves?

Why should the West have to face that "long battle ahead"? Let them sort themselves out!
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Message 1581555 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 17:57:19 UTC - in response to Message 1581525.  



Why should the West have to face that "long battle ahead"? Let them sort themselves out!



THIS!!

If the west 'sorts them out', it will NOT be acceptable to them. Things will just fall apart again in short order.

In my opinion, they need to sort themselves out. Only then will things have even a remote chance of remaining 'sorted out'.

In other words, it is no business of ours to tell them how they must structure their society.

If they prefer a government led by a person of religious eminence, or a government led by a military strongman to a government embodying democratic principles, it is their choice. Let them.

What works for us, works for us.

What works for them, works for them.
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Message 1581564 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 18:23:56 UTC - in response to Message 1581555.  

Exactly so +1.

However, we have to contend with BHL's...

What was IS's aim of video?

"This offer will appeal to those who believe that jihadist groups such as Islamic State can be reasoned with."

...Most of those BHL's more than likely have no kids. We all know that when kids can't get what they want, they break their toys...

...unfortunately, when the "kids" of IS can't get their demands met, they cut people's heads off.
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Message 1581580 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 18:40:22 UTC - in response to Message 1581564.  

Pardon, Sirus, but I am not familiar with the acronym 'BHL'. Could you please explain or define it? Thank you.
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Message 1581587 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 18:51:14 UTC - in response to Message 1581580.  

With pleasure :-)

Bleeding Heart Liberal's
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Message 1581596 - Posted: 3 Oct 2014, 19:07:57 UTC - in response to Message 1581587.  

With pleasure :-)

Bleeding Heart Liberal's


Ahh. Thank you!
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Message 1581758 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 9:38:59 UTC

One, the countries in the Middle East ARE taking part in this, so they are contributing to the efforts of eradicating ISIS.

Two, why should you interfere? Because not interfering will come at a much higher cost. Refugees seeking shelter, the growing instability in the region causing financial harm, the very real threat of ISIS exporting its violence to Europe, the US and other countries, and the very real threat of genocide and enslavement of thousands, if not millions of people. You wanna look the other way? Go right ahead, but don't complain when people with more sense and a functional ethical compass want to intervene. Not everyone is as cynical and misanthropic as you.

Three, shock and yawn? Hehehe. That stupid phrase. Its as idiotic as the term 'Blitzkrieg'. Words and phrases that sound good in the media but never had any real practical meaning because they were describing things that didn't exist.
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Message 1581774 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 11:45:46 UTC - in response to Message 1581758.  

Simple answer to you Michel, where are you & your ilk now that the Crimea & Ukraine erupted? EU moving eastwards? Too much for you, so snuck away like a thief in the night, leaving those in that area to fend for themselves!

Your solution? Damned sanctions. That's all your good for - talk talk talk!
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Message 1581798 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 13:23:35 UTC - in response to Message 1581774.  

Simple answer to you Michel, where are you & your ilk now that the Crimea & Ukraine erupted? EU moving eastwards? Too much for you, so snuck away like a thief in the night, leaving those in that area to fend for themselves!

Your solution? Damned sanctions. That's all your good for - talk talk talk!

And not all conflicts are created equal in severity, risk and need for us to intervene. Ukraine and Crimea, as bad as they were, were localized conflicts and so far have not gotten any bigger. If we had intervened directly, we would have made it worse, much worse.

Iraq and Syria? We waited for the longest time, we tried to stay out of it, but the conflict has gone from local civil unrest to a regional war involving multiple countries and with the serious risk of destabilizing even more countries. Not getting involved would simply be irresponsible.

And what kind of utterly ridiculous twisted logic are you using? You criticize us for trying the diplomatic route and not escalating a local conflict into effing world war three by dropping bombs on the Russians. But when there is an actual danger, an actual conflict that requires our military effort and we are willing and capable of making that effort, you complain?

You appear to be a chronic complainer, who no matter what any ever does, they will never do it right in your view. Even though you yourself have absolutely no idea what to do instead. At least, not one that is even remotely realistic.
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Message 1581815 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 14:12:13 UTC - in response to Message 1581798.  

And what kind of utterly ridiculous twisted logic are you using? You criticize us for trying the diplomatic route and not escalating a local conflict into effing world war three by dropping bombs on the Russians. But when there is an actual danger, an actual conflict that requires our military effort and we are willing and capable of making that effort, you complain?

You appear to be a chronic complainer, who no matter what any ever does, they will never do it right in your view. Even though you yourself have absolutely no idea what to do instead. At least, not one that is even remotely realistic.


No twisted logic, just laughing at the numerous amount of "Spocks" out there...

..."the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Try telling that to the ones taken hostage or their families, when people like you & those that lead state the following: -

Completely unforgivable

"Prime Minister David Cameron described the murder as "completely unforgivable" and vowed the UK would do all it could to find those responsible." Just soundbites. Just what would the UK be doing to achieve that?

You can't even understand "Logistics". As for not knowing what to do, ask any military personal of the past & you'll get your answers.

You cannot deal with those who ignore the Geneva Convention! So, fight fire with fire!

Unfortunately for such as yourself, that would be too outlandish for your sensibilities.
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Message 1581839 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 14:52:13 UTC - in response to Message 1581798.  
Last modified: 4 Oct 2014, 14:54:30 UTC

Simple answer to you Michel, where are you & your ilk now that the Crimea & Ukraine erupted? EU moving eastwards? Too much for you, so snuck away like a thief in the night, leaving those in that area to fend for themselves!

Your solution? Damned sanctions. That's all your good for - talk talk talk!

And not all conflicts are created equal in severity, risk and need for us to intervene. Ukraine and Crimea, as bad as they were, were localized conflicts and so far have not gotten any bigger. If we had intervened directly, we would have made it worse, much worse.

Iraq and Syria? We waited for the longest time, we tried to stay out of it, but the conflict has gone from local civil unrest to a regional war involving multiple countries and with the serious risk of destabilizing even more countries. Not getting involved would simply be irresponsible.

And what kind of utterly ridiculous twisted logic are you using? You criticize us for trying the diplomatic route and not escalating a local conflict into effing world war three by dropping bombs on the Russians. But when there is an actual danger, an actual conflict that requires our military effort and we are willing and capable of making that effort, you complain?

You appear to be a chronic complainer, who no matter what any ever does, they will never do it right in your view. Even though you yourself have absolutely no idea what to do instead. At least, not one that is even remotely realistic.



I think you have it backwards, Мишель.

Ukraine/Crimea is somewhat of a global problem. The aggressor nation is a nuclear power spanning two continents. And yes, that conflict got bigger. What started as an invasion by Russia of the Ukraine region of Crimea soon spread to other regions of Ukraine.

Europe (and the rest of the world) decided on diplomacy here not because it was a 'localized' conflict, but because the aggressor nation is a global power.

Don't poke the Russian bear with a pointy stick. It might wake up and bite you. Like, I dunno, turn your gas off this winter (again...). Puto^Hin has you by the short and curlies, and he knows it, and YOU know it.

The IS/ISIL/ISIS situation in Syria and Iraq? It is just the continuation of a very old conflict in the region, been going on over 1200 years. The conflict over form of Government. The Shia position (A Theocratic government led by certain people of religious eminence) vs. the Sunni position (A secular Caliphate -- led by a military strongman).

We might have been able to contain the IS problem diplomatically, if we had stayed out of it. But, fresh from the stinging impotence of being powerless to do anything about Putin's fait acompli in the Ukraine, I only suppose that when IS cut a few people's heads off on video, it was the perfect excuse to pretend you have a pair again.

Man 1: Ouch, that bully thrashing us really hurt!
Man 2: Physically or Emotionally?
Man 1: Both.
Man 2: Yep.
Man 1: Did you see what they just did way over there?
Man 2: Yep. Barbaric, isn't it!
Man 1: Can we whip them?
Man 2: Uhh.. yeah.. What do you have in mind?
Man 1: REVENGE!!!
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Message 1581897 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 16:36:07 UTC

Perfect for the region...

Operation "Apocalypse"
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Message 1581984 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 20:44:05 UTC - in response to Message 1581815.  

No twisted logic, just laughing at the numerous amount of "Spocks" out there...

..."the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". Try telling that to the ones taken hostage or their families, when people like you & those that lead state the following: -

Completely unforgivable

"Prime Minister David Cameron described the murder as "completely unforgivable" and vowed the UK would do all it could to find those responsible." Just soundbites. Just what would the UK be doing to achieve that?

Well try running a country on the principle that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. See how long that lasts.

That aside, even though I agree that what mr Cameron says is just the things the press wants to hear, there is an element in truth of it. It is unforgivable that an organization that claims to speaking for all Muslims in the world would decapitate a taxi driver that was doing volunteer work for innocent civilians caught in the cross fire, someone who was helping other innocent Muslims. Murdering innocent people like this just highlights the need for our involvement.

You can't even understand "Logistics". As for not knowing what to do, ask any military personal of the past & you'll get your answers.

You cannot deal with those who ignore the Geneva Convention! So, fight fire with fire!

Unfortunately for such as yourself, that would be too outlandish for your sensibilities.

I understand the importance of logistics quite well, thank you very much.

And as I stated before, being a member of the military does not grant one superior insight in how to deal with conflicts. Especially not in your case, if you honestly think that fighting fire with fire is somehow going to solve anything. In case you haven't noticed, Assad has been fighting fire with fire for the past several years, and all he managed to do was turn a small fire into a raging fire storm. And in Iraq, the fighting fire with fire approach led to the rise of ISIS in a number of Sunni cities, where they felt the only way to get fairer representation in the Iraqi government was by turning to the extreme violence of ISIS.

In short, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Like I said, your only 'solution' is both not a solution, unreasonable and pretty much impossible.
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Message 1581990 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 20:56:35 UTC - in response to Message 1581984.  

Well try running a country on the principle that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. See how long that lasts.

The United Corporations of Amerika seems to be surviving. At least that is what the BHL's see the USA as.
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Message 1581995 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 21:13:43 UTC - in response to Message 1581839.  

I think you have it backwards, Мишель.

Ukraine/Crimea is somewhat of a global problem. The aggressor nation is a nuclear power spanning two continents. And yes, that conflict got bigger. What started as an invasion by Russia of the Ukraine region of Crimea soon spread to other regions of Ukraine.

Europe (and the rest of the world) decided on diplomacy here not because it was a 'localized' conflict, but because the aggressor nation is a global power.

Don't poke the Russian bear with a pointy stick. It might wake up and bite you. Like, I dunno, turn your gas off this winter (again...). Puto^Hin has you by the short and curlies, and he knows it, and YOU know it.

A conflict between exactly two countries: Russia and Ukraine. The aggressor nation is a regional power pushing a smaller former satellite state around. The violence was contained to just Ukraine, and actually only a small part of Ukraine, namely the eastern border region. It didn't affect any other countries.

Now what would have happened if Europe responded by bombing the Russians? Europe would in essence declare war on Russia, so the conflict would escalate to a war between the EU/NATO, Ukraine and Russia.

Does Russia have us by the balls because they control the gas valve? No, not really, because the gas valve is a double edged sword. We are, for now, the biggest importers of Russian gas. If Russia would close the valve, we would be out of gas, but Russia would be out of money. Combined with our economic sanctions, our economy would take a hit, but theirs would take a much much bigger hit. The current sanctions already have a significant impact on their economy, cutting off the gas to Europe would only make it worse for them.

Now because Putin is an autocrat, he can take a hit like this, at least for a few months, maybe a year, before the common Russians start to complain. But the bigger the economic blow to the Russian economy, the faster Putin has to catch his breath again.

The IS/ISIL/ISIS situation in Syria and Iraq? It is just the continuation of a very old conflict in the region, been going on over 1200 years. The conflict over form of Government. The Shia position (A Theocratic government led by certain people of religious eminence) vs. the Sunni position (A secular Caliphate -- led by a military strongman).

*sigh*
There is no such thing as a secular Caliphate. Those words contradict itself. A caliphate is by definition a political authority consisting of religious-political leaders. A caliph is a supposed successor to Muhammed. The real distinction between Shia's and Sunni's is whether they believe the cousin or the uncle of Muhammed is the successor of Muhammed as the true leader of Islam. In more practical terms the difference between the two boils down to the fact that members in one group specialize in the teachings of one specific Islamic scholar, while the members of the other group do not specialize and think people should listen to what all kinds of Islamic scholars have to say.

While indeed Shia's and Sunni's have been at each others throat throughout history does not mean that each of those conflicts are just religious conflicts and have no other causes. Thats like saying every time Catholics and Protestants are fighting each other the cause of the conflict is the contra-reformation.

In this case, the specific reason for this conflict is first of all rooted in the American invasion of Iraq. ISIS started out as the Iraqi branch of Al Queda. They rose to power in Iraq because the ex prime minister of Iraq, mr Al-Maliki was a Shia who systematically abused his position to marginalize the Sunni minority while giving his Shia powerbase all the nice government positions and important jobs. The Sunni minority thus started to hate and distrust the government, and thereby giving an opening for a Sunni extremist group to become popular because they promise to deliver the people from the Shia led government in Bagdad.

Meanwhile in Syria years of oppression by the Assad family cause a major revolt which escalates in a brutal civil war. The instability attracts terror organizations from the region to fight against the Assad regime, and establish their 'Islamic State' in the region. ISIS, which already operates in the border region crosses over and finds that Syria is a much better homebase, given the total absence of anyone capable of resisting them. From there they start their attacks against Iraq.

So, is this conflict of the same scale as Ukraine? God no, this is much bigger. First of all the violence spread from Iraq to Syria to Iraq again. And from there to Lebanon and is at the borders of Turkey, thereby proving that if ISIS is not contained, its violence might spread even further. ISIS is actively targeting civilians of different faiths killing thousands and threatening to wipe out entire ethnic groups living in the area, so threatening to cause a genocide. Western Muslim extremists have gone to Syria to fight for ISIS and they are now a viable threat to the West as well.

We might have been able to contain the IS problem diplomatically, if we had stayed out of it. But, fresh from the stinging impotence of being powerless to do anything about Putin's fait acompli in the Ukraine, I only suppose that when IS cut a few people's heads off on video, it was the perfect excuse to pretend you have a pair again.

Ehm have you read the papers or watched the news? We stayed out of Syria for three years and it has only gone from bad to worse. You honestly think you can reason with people like ISIS? So Putin gets called Hitler for annexing a piece of land and we supposedly can't reason with some one like Putin, but the people that have no problem raping, enslaving and murdering people simply because they believe in a different God are the guys you think you can contain diplomatically?

I'm sorry, but how does that even make sense? No mate, the only one here who has it backward is you I'm afraid.
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Message 1581996 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 21:16:55 UTC - in response to Message 1581990.  

Well try running a country on the principle that the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many. See how long that lasts.

The United Corporations of Amerika seems to be surviving. At least that is what the BHL's see the USA as.

Oh sure. But I have to say, the corporations of the US couldn't have wished for a better PR company than the republican party. No one knows better how to tug the heartstrings of American conservatives and make them think that unbridled, deregulated capitalism is actually for the benefit of the majority.
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Message 1582057 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 23:29:51 UTC

Michel for a 20-25 year old, you possess some fascinating insights into: -

Military Strategy
Military Tactics
Logistics
Politics
Economics
Diplomacy
Psychology
Bureaucracy

Good God boy, you have all the prerequisites for an amazing leader, so why aren't you the President of the United States of Europe?

As for my "solution" I love your diplomatic solution! By the way, it's too late for "kid gloves".
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Message 1582065 - Posted: 4 Oct 2014, 23:57:48 UTC - in response to Message 1582057.  

Good God boy, you have all the prerequisites for an amazing leader, so why aren't you the President of the United States of Europe?

Eh give it time, perhaps in 10 years :P

And I never said the solution should not involve the military. It should, to a certain extend at least.
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