[Doesn't make any Practical Sense.

IE: Your Local Policeman protects you, and enforces the Law, ONLY because that job supports HIS family. SO WHAT? Who, except some Right-Wing Puritan, cares?

Yes, but such a police officers sole job is to uphold the law and he must uphold ALL the laws. The US, in terms of being a police officer, upholds the law only when it suits them and in a number of cases broke the law when that suited them. If you want to call that a policemen, the closest analogy would be a corrupt one.

I don't think the US is a corrupt police officer though. Its just to simplistic to think in terms of policemen when it comes to countries and upholding international law. Countries are not policemen nor will they ever be. A countries first and foremost interest is its own. No country is going to sacrifice itself, its economy, its citizens health and welfare just so it can upkeep international law all around the world.

I thought this thread was about the unrest in the Ukraine. Not about continual bickering between the US and Europe.

Edit- We didnt get invovled with WW1 or WW2 out of the kindeness of our hearts. We got invloved in WW1 because of German unrestriced submarine warfare.
In WW2 we stayed out of it untill Hitler stupidly declared war on us after we declared war on Japan.
So give up the we saved Europe twice crap.

And you should thank France for the US winning the revolution.

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Old James

Maybe we should lock Clyde and Michelle up in a room together and see if they can work out all the world's problems all by themselves.

Cheers.

For both Russia and USA moving any numbers of military forces brings several strategic gains rather than "Liberation" that they keep repeating on main medias.

This Ukrain occupation of Russia has several gains for them as everyone here talked several times over. And US military positioning all around Europe gave numerous advantages for America despite media brain washings.

Bigger countries military moves are always dirty and toxic for others and backward for their internal middle class as 90s Russias social chaos and last 5 years Americans economic crashes due to wars and cold war ending.

The interesting similarity is Russias every neighbours hate Russia, and Americas every neighbours hate America although the media manage to show opposite stuff for social stability sakes.

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Mandtugai!

Maybe we should lock Clyde and Michelle up in a room together and see if they can work out all the world's problems all by themselves.

I've just splatted my coffee all over the screen! What a cat fight that would be :-))

Sorry about that, I hope that your screen survived its shower Chris.

Cheers.

What can Non-Russian Europeans do to stop Russia, who Controls Much of Their Energy? Is the question of what Crimea really means.

Again, that is a double edged sword. It would hurt us, yes, but it would hurt the Russians just as much. The only difference here is that Putin is willing to accept that damage to a greater degree than we do in Europe.

And I'll be frank, I'm not glad with the way we are handling this. Diplomacy, sure, we should use that first and foremost, but its clear that for all our talk about how unacceptable Russia's behavior is, it is clear that our primary concern is our ability to make money off the Russians. Furthermore, our response is so utterly hypocritical that it is so easy for the Russians to reflect anything we say and do. I mean, Crimea just declared its independence from Ukraine and Europe's response is that this is against international law, less than a decade after we pulled the same stunt in Kosovo?!

God, the West is run by idiots and people like Putin know it and exploit it.

What can Non-Russian Europeans do to stop Russia, who Controls Much of Their Energy? Is the question of what Crimea really means.

Again, that is a double edged sword. It would hurt us, yes, but it would hurt the Russians just as much. The only difference here is that Putin is willing to accept that damage to a greater degree than we do in Europe.

And I'll be frank, I'm not glad with the way we are handling this. Diplomacy, sure, we should use that first and foremost, but its clear that for all our talk about how unacceptable Russia's behavior is, it is clear that our primary concern is our ability to make money off the Russians. Furthermore, our response is so utterly hypocritical that it is so easy for the Russians to reflect anything we say and do. I mean, Crimea just declared its independence from Ukraine and Europe's response is that this is against international law, less than a decade after we pulled the same stunt in Kosovo?!

God, the West is run by idiots and people like Putin know it and exploit it.

Took ya long enough to come to that realization.

Here is a link to what a very wise man has to say on how to end the Ukraine mess. I agree with him on it. Especially the last paragraph.

These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.

Furthermore, our response is so utterly hypocritical that it is so easy for the Russians to reflect anything we say and do. I mean, Crimea just declared its independence from Ukraine and Europe's response is that this is against international law, less than a decade after we pulled the same stunt in Kosovo?!

God, the West is run by idiots and people like Putin know it and exploit it.

More to the point, the present Prime Minister of Ukraine is delicately referred to as an "interim prime minister". That means he was installed by an armed mob, not exactly a display of constitutional governance. I am slightly disappointed with President Obama for the opposite reason that most people here seem to be. I don't know why he is getting the U.S. into this mess at all. If the EU wants to deal with it, that would be an educational exercise for them no doubt, but what are they hoping to gain from it? Do they really care whether Crimea is governed by Russia or Ukraine?

I think it is just old Cold War rhetoric at work; the mouths need to slow down and the brains speed up.

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Putins grab looks just like Hilters move on the Sudetenland. All in the pretext of saving lives that were never in any danger.
Besides the Crimean, What other lands do the Russians have claims on? They could be next.

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Old James

When Ronnie invaded Grenada to protect U.S. citizens, what other targets did he have in mind? Did he miss them?

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Putins grab looks just like Hilters move on the Sudetenland. All in the pretext of saving lives that were never in any danger.
Besides the Crimean, What other lands do the Russians have claims on? They could be next.

No it doesn't. People should stop making all these false analogies to the Nazis and the Second World War. Putin is not Hitler, no matter how much his opponents claim he is. Crimea is not Sudetenland or Austria.

Jim is right, the current government in Kiev is the result of a coup, for understandable reasons, but it remains a coup. Whats worse, they did it one day after a deal was made which would have resulted in early elections in and which would have restored the constitution of 2004. That deal was brokered by the EU and the protesters disregarded it. Again, for understandable reasons.

Furthermore, the Crimea has always been an autonomous region. It has its own parliament and government and has been part of Russia for the most part of its history. Whether the threat against Russian citizens there is real or imagined, it does have the right to ask for Russia's help and it does have the right to secede. And given both America's and Europe's track record, they only look like whining hypocrites if they object.

Sure, the situation could have been handled more diplomatically by the Russians. But we must not make the mistake to look at this through our Western goggles which sort of paint us and the government in Kiev as the 'good guys' and the Russians as the bad guys. There are no good guys or bad guys here. We are not any better than they.

There are no good guys or bad guys here. We are not any better than they.

Just ask ALL the Russian's fleeing Putinland.

Awaiting Мишель exodus to Russia from the Netherlands. Why not? THEY are both the same!

True Mishel is a russian guy who escaped Putins darkness. Since 2000 Russian population decreased by 5 million. Maybe 1-2 million escaped Putinland, 2-3 million just got exterminated by dark empire.

this fact revealing documentary is telling all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgY7vVcoLCk - Approved by millions of russians because the audio is in russian. This another copy of same video has over 3 million views which also approves majority's view.

Nowadays London UK is the top destination for rich russians to evade their tax money into real estate that is why in London the real state price is going crazy despite big financial troubles. Also the corrupted regime is officially creating channels for minority rich russians to position tax evaded russian moneys all over the world destinations which London is one bigger visible destination despite the hundreds.

There are many George Bush corruption videos on youtube that reflect general populations reflections but Russians video on anti Putin regime is attracted quite sizeably more audience because illegality inside their society is really big.

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Mandtugai!

Just ask ALL the Russian's fleeing Putinland.

Awaiting Мишель exodus to Russia from the Netherlands. Why not? THEY are both the same!

Seriously? Of course Russia is not the same as the Netherlands. I just said we should stop looking at countries in terms of good vs bad, right vs wrong. Such simplistic black and white distinctions have no place in international politics and they only hamper any diplomatic effort. Furthermore, the people who actually believe in such a distinction usually turn out to be massive hypocrites and are easily discredited because of that.

Say that a coup happened tomorrow in Germany or France, the President, prime minister and the parliament get all kicked out of office and new elections are called for. Would we be supporting that? Hell no. We would denounce the people who organized the coup, we would call it an illegitimate move, etc. Now say that the governments of those countries flee to a part of their countries, Merkel to Munich and Hollande to Marseille, with their government, along with about half of the army which is still loyal to the original government, and they declare that the democratically elected government continues in these cities and along with an area around that, effectively splitting these regions off from France and Germany. Who do you think we support? Merkel and Hollande, because they form the legitimate governments, they are the democratically elected leaders of their country. Just because they are no longer in their traditional office in the traditional capitals doesn't change that. Under national and international law they are still the recognized and legitimate heads of state and the rest of the West would support them. Hell, we would probably send in troops to help them regain control over the capital if they asked for military support.

So, why do we support a coup in a country like Ukraine, and blame the Russians for being 'evil' when an autonomous region, loyal to the legitimate head of state asks for help, while we would never do such a thing if it was France or Germany. That is just proof of a massive double standard, and in my eyes, the result of thinking in terms of good vs evil. We think of ourselves as good, so anything that looks like us, or proclaims to want to be like us is also good, and because its good, it doesn't matter what they do. But when someone who is not like us, who we consider 'evil' does something, its almost automatically wrong, even if what they do is in accordance with the law. In the West, because we were so involved with creating international law, we seem to think that the law is something that only applies to the bad guys, while we can do whatever we want. If America invades a country without a mandate from the UN (and is therefor breaching international law) at best it gets some weak criticism from the rest of the West. But if the Russians do it, they are the bad guys. We allowed Kosovo to secede from Serbia, we pretty much force Serbia to recognize Kosovo as a separate state, but thats all okay because we say so. But if Putin backs a region that wants to do the same, Putin is suddenly the next Tsar, the next Hitler annexing Sudetenland, the guy who reignites the cold war and who apparently wants to take over Europe.

We are such hypocrites.

Excellent post.

Just wondering what would have occurred if the EU had kept their snouts out, would the current situation have existed?

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Excellent post.

Just wondering what would have occurred if the EU had kept their snouts out, would the current situation have existed?

Sooner or later something similar would have happened. Corrupt regimes are inherently unstable, and at some point the people would have started protesting. The only question is whether the EU made it happen sooner or later.

Мишель is missing the point. All countries on Russias western border were once under direct Russian control. When the breakup of the USSR happened they all became independent countries in their own right. At least on the face of it they did. The truth was and is, that the whole lot including Ukraine, remained Russian Satellite States, with leaders and regimes "friendly" to Moscow. The people of those countries could think differently if they wished to. Russia have never relinquished control over them totally, and never will do.

The only two countries that remain under strong Russian control are Ukraine and Belarus, at least at the Western border. And Ukraine has been struggling with that for years now. Remember the orange revolution from a few years back?

Obviously, Russia wants to keep some buffer states with friendly regimes. It does view Europe and NATO as a threat to its own interests. But so what? Lots of superpowers and regional powers play this game. Europe tries to achieve the same with its Neighborhood policy, though in a less heavy handed way.

Remember also that for over 44 years from 1947 until 1991 there was the cold war between the worlds two superpowers of Russia and the USA. With Russia regularly challenging whether it would push buttons for a nuclear warfare scenario in a WWIII conflict. Remember all those missiles regularly paraded through Red Square? Was it all just to impress the peasants in Siberia? The collapse of communism led to the collapse of Communist regimes in other countries as well, such as Mongolia, Cambodia and South Yemen.

So yes the big Russian Bear are the worlds baddies, at least since the end of WWII. And Putin shows no signs of ending that.

How does a military parade every year make them evil? And do you think that the Soviet Union was the only one who courted disaster? The United States participated just as much in provoking the Russians into a possible attack. Under its policy of containment it pretty much meddled all around the world with sovereign countries in an effort to prevent the spread of communism. Vietnam, Greece, Italy, Afghanistan, South America, Africa. Really, objectively both super powers did things that were illegal and unethical. But because we have a closer relation with the US, we see them as the good guys and the Russians as the bad guys, when in reality there is hardly a difference in their foreign policy.

So, we have a Serbian poster living in the Netherlands that thinks Putinland is AOK in her book. Takes all sorts to make a world.

How do you figure I'm Serbian? And I never said that what Putin does is all great. I said we should stop being hypocrites, because we aren't all that better. At least not in our foreign policy. What Putin does to his own people is irrelevant here.

Good luck Alex. I have a feeling you've been officially recalled and are now assembling and gearing up. May GOD be with you.

GOD be with you Alex, and all the Other's Fighting Russia.

Thank you,my friends Guy,CLYDE,Orgil and oth.!
Yes, we are all very busy...but according to any access to a computer and the network will be in stock!
I am writing to you all to know...we are ready and just like that, it all "at haphazard",do not intend to leave!
Our Army is in full readiness to give into the teeth to the aggressor from the East! We have enough weapons... only combat-ready tanks more than four thousand! But most importantly, I'm sure this is fighting spirit of soldiers and officers! Our combat-motto: "For a life to death, with Ukraine in heart!"
For example, this military unit (see video, today http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7B_riJai20) has six military awards from Stalin during World War II...
And grandchildren are not worse than their grandfathers!
The only question is: "Just why we were not warned in advance"???
I about this http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/03/07/286922555/u-s-knew-of-imminent-move-in-crimea-top-official-says I personally do not understand! :(
And finally... If no one wants to help, we will fight alone against the plague of the 21st century, until the last drop of blood to the last soldier!

Regards,
Alex

It seems that it is up to the Ukranians and Russia as to what happens next. The talking heads in the west havent a clue as to what to do. Economic threats seem to have no effect, And I dont see the UN sending in UN troops.
So If the Government of Ukraine yeilds to the Russians or fights is up to them.

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Old James

Now Sarah Palin wades in. :-(

http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/sarah-palins-advice-to-barack-obama-stop-putin-with-nukes/story-fnh81jut-1226849448434