Could the American electricity grids deal with 254 million vehicles being charged
daily if every car owner in the USA drove one?...that's without taking into
consideration all the other electrical appliance that the car owner may be
running in their homes at the same time along with their vehicle charger.

considering that we would have 254 million less cars lined up at the gas pumps I'd say yes. It would mean the burden would be shifted from the Oil Companies to the Electric generation folks.

Once again this is a boon for Alternative fuels because wind solar and geothermal can make up for almost any deficit in electricity production.

Lets also not forget that we'd be dumping most of our need for oil being turned into gasoline. This would lower demand and increase self sufficiency in energy. Its a win win win.

I don't think it's going to be a win-win-win situation with the electric car.
First, you will have to build many-many more installations capable of generating
the electricity.
Second, power installations will have to be vastly upgraded to be capable of
delivering the high power demands made upon it.
Third, multiple distribution/charging points will need to be set-up everywhere
so that adhoc charging of vehicles could be carried out as and when required
by the motorists possibly en-mass.
Fourth, one gas station can fill 10 cars every 5 minutes where as a similar
station supplying charging facilities could only service 10 cars every couple
of hours or more.
Fifth, even though the electric motor is three time more efficient than a petrol
engine the electric battery looses it's charge over time whereas a gas tank
loses nothing when no fuel is being drawn.
When you take this charge loss into consideration you are constantly having to
put into a battery a loss make up charge, energy never used but lost. So the
efficiency drops off even more let along the loss experience through the natural
ageing of the battery itself. This latter one leading to more regular charging
of the battery over time.
Sixth, recycling of a petrol engine is a lot less expensive than it is for
recycling the multiple batteries used in electric vehicles.
Seventh, an electric car quoted as having enough battery capacity to permit it
to cover 200 miles on one charge is assessed to do so under controlled
conditions. Put that same vehicle on a highway, in cold wet weather, at night
so that you have your headlights on, your wipers going plus your electric heater
running then I suspect you'r not going to get anywhere near 200 miles out of
this one charge. Much less if your stuck in a traffic jam too.

There is yet no battery that has the capacity to deliver enough power that makes
the electric car a feasible alternative to the petrol engined car.
Personally I don't think that the electric car will ever replace the petrol one,
it will be something else, but what ever it is it wont be running off batteries
as it's source to run the vehicle.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Nick I agree with most of your points however you are wrong about there are no batteries that will do the job there is a tech that will do the job and unlike Lithium which can only be charged approx. no more than 1000 times they are called capacitor batteries they will be able to be charged 10000+ times and can be quick charged without the problems you get with normal types of batteries they are lighter and hold the promise of holding more power than even a Lithium battery they are not that far from being fully developed say 5 more years maybe even less if money was put into them being developed

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... Once again this is a boon for Alternative fuels because wind solar and geothermal can make up for almost any deficit in electricity production.

Lets also not forget that we'd be dumping most of our need for oil being turned into gasoline. This would lower demand and increase self sufficiency in energy. Its a win win win.

I don't think it's going to be a win-win-win situation with the electric car.

As always, it's the old game of "horses for courses"... For example, we have had electric milk floats and electric golf carts very successfully running for many years now on some very old tech...

First, you will have to build many-many more installations capable of generating the electricity.

That will be ongoing and to be expected. Also note that "battery-electric" vehicles are only one of a number of solutions. There is also hydrogen combustion and hydrogen fuel cell vehicles amongst various others that should all have their place.

Second, power installations will have to be vastly upgraded to be capable of delivering the high power demands made upon it.

As can be expected. There is also the hope of "smart metering" and power control to ease the peaks and troughs of grid power demand. There are hopes that battery powered vehicles can be exploited as part of managing the power supply balance...

Third, multiple distribution/charging points will need to be set-up everywhere so that adhoc charging of vehicles could be carried out as and when required by the motorists possibly en-mass.

That is something being put in place in such areas such as California USA and London UK. There are also various ideas of designing for battery exchange facilities to avoid the recharge time delay for customers.

Fourth, one gas station can fill 10 cars every 5 minutes where as a similar station supplying charging facilities could only service 10 cars every couple of hours or more.

Go instead for battery exchange or hydrogen refills for fuel cells.

Or even include recharging as part of parking meter charges... (Sorry, bad multiple pun there!)

Fifth, even though the electric motor is three time more efficient than a petrol engine the electric battery looses it's charge over time whereas a gas tank loses nothing when no fuel is being drawn.

When you take this charge loss into consideration you are constantly having to
put into a battery a loss make up charge, energy never used but lost. So the
efficiency drops off even more let along the loss experience through the natural
ageing of the battery itself. This latter one leading to more regular charging
of the battery over time.

All a part of the tech that will continue to improve or to be worked around. That is an insignificant problem individually although it is an unwelcome wast on a large scale when accumulated over many users. However, note though how hopelessly inefficient modern day patrol engines are still. All that wasted heat!

Sixth, recycling of a petrol engine is a lot less expensive than it is for recycling the multiple batteries used in electric vehicles.

I'm sure the battery recycling will follow on with the battery tech used. Note that most lead-acid batteries have been recycled a few times over by now. Worse than drinking London water that has likely already passed through your neighbor the previous week!

Seventh, an electric car quoted as having enough battery capacity to permit it to cover 200 miles on one charge is assessed to do so under controlled
conditions. Put that same vehicle on a highway, in cold wet weather, at night
so that you have your headlights on, your wipers going plus your electric heater
running then I suspect you'r not going to get anywhere near 200 miles out of
this one charge. Much less if your stuck in a traffic jam too.

Name whatever extremes you want. As always, horses for courses. Battery electric vehicles are far better for city stop-start than for urban holiday excursions, as can be expected. For long distance going electric, plan your journey or go by electric powered train! Meanwhile, for the time being, battery-electric is much more suited for city run-around and commuting.

There is yet no battery that has the capacity to deliver enough power that makes the electric car a feasible alternative to the petrol engined car.
Personally I don't think that the electric car will ever replace the petrol one,
it will be something else, but what ever it is it wont be running off batteries
as it's source to run the vehicle.

A present day purely battery-electric car cannot hope to compete with a chemical engine for long distance endurance.

Which is where other tech and other methods come in as more suitable. Meanwhile, your petrol engine is still as hopelessly inefficient as ever. Horses for courses?


'twill be interesting to see in what direction the tech develops. You might say we're at the early days similar to the early days of making the steam engine efficient enough to be worthwhile... Stephenson's rocket anyone?


This is the only planet we have,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Meanwhile, your petrol engine is still as hopelessly inefficient as ever

One small point of order. It is a fact that internal combustion engines are much more efficient than they were 20 years ago.

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... Once again this is a boon for Alternative fuels because wind solar and geothermal can make up for almost any deficit in electricity production.

Lets also not forget that we'd be dumping most of our need for oil being turned into gasoline. This would lower demand and increase self sufficiency in energy. Its a win win win.

I don't think it's going to be a win-win-win situation with the electric car.

As always, it's the old game of "horses for courses"... For example, we have had electric milk floats and electric golf carts very successfully running for many years now on some very old tech...

I sense European 1000 year old city thinking at work here.

In places where cities are somewhat more modern the average trip length is a bit longer. Makes a much bigger battery pack a necessity, far over and above European thinking.

Lets see ... city proper ...
London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London Area 1.12 square miles
Los Angeles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles Area 469 square miles
Ratio 418 to 1

Maybe not fair, so ... Metro area ...
London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London Area 607 square miles
Los Angeles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area Area 33,954 square miles
Ratio 56 to 1

That is going to be a lot of copper wire.

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Lets see ... city proper

Another point of order, LA is not a proper city.

---

Lets see ... city proper

Another point of order, LA is not a proper city.

Clarify why you do not consider it to be a proper city please.

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Comparing area of Los Angeles with London is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

The area you quoted for Los Angeles, I believe is for Los Angeles County, which includes the city of Los Angeles . And although London is regarded as a county the area covered by the urban mass known as Greater London crosses county boundaries.

What's a proper city?
Difficult to define, even in the UK. We have Wells, Somerset which has 12,000 inhabitants that is a city, because it has an old cathedral, 13th century, and towns with cathedrals like Blackburn poulation >100,000 that is a town.

And also we have Greater Manchester which includes 2 cities, Manchester and Salford.

And to compare the UK and the USA, I live in a village with just over 800 inhabitants but have a friend in Michigan who lives just outside a city which has a population of ~900.

Comparing area of Los Angeles with London is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

The area you quoted for Los Angeles, I believe is for Los Angeles County, which includes the city of Los Angeles . And although London is regarded as a county the area covered by the urban mass known as Greater London crosses county boundaries.

County area 4,752.32 square miles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_County,_California
The city is big.

And that is the point!

<ed - included prior numbers and proper = incorporated city limits>

Lets see ... city proper ...
London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London Area 1.12 square miles
Los Angeles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles Area 469 square miles
Ratio 418 to 1

Maybe not fair, so ... Metro area ...
London http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London Area 607 square miles
Los Angeles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Los_Angeles_Area Area 33,954 square miles
Ratio 56 to 1

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Sounds like the U.S should be doing what China is and has done build Very fast train systems to link the biggest city's and at over 450klm per hour mite even be faster to get where you wish to go quicker than a plane once you add time for getting to and from airport to main city centres

---

I was actually thinking about the other side. I know people in Chingwell, (oh the shame), that is inside the M25 and has underground stations and a London post code but is in Essex.

Dartford in Kent also falls into that category.

[URL]http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3756914.htm[URL]

Latest news on CO2 Levels

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How the hell do you post a link

Lynn put up a post that told me how to do it but some fraking dweed removed it

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http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3756914.htm

There you go Glen....copied URL to posting page then highlighted with the mouse
and then selected URL button.

CO2 levels in atmosphere hit historic high

A bit of a misleading headline since history shows levels much higher, if you
wish to go back in time far enough.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Thank you Nick

If there is not more consistency in which posts are removed and what stays up I will be emailing the Dean of the Uni again I am not fraking jokeing

---

What... skulduggery going on!!...hope not.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

What... skulduggery going on!!...hope not.

The last time I was emailing the Dean was some time ago what it was about is between me and him but I can not stand people doing there jobs they are supposed to do incompetently ....... got it

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What... skulduggery going on!!...hope not.

The last time I was emailing the Dean was some time ago what it was about is between me and him but I can not stand people doing there jobs they are supposed to do incompetently ....... got it

Understood...

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Meanwhile, your petrol engine is still as hopelessly inefficient as ever

One small point of order. It is a fact that internal combustion engines are much more efficient than they were 20 years ago.

Indeed so. However, they are still hopelessly inefficient compared to what can be achieved for such as high temperature gas turbine engines. It's all to do with the Carnot cycle...


We could buy ourselves many years of fuel savings and pollution savings by 'just' improving the efficiency of the tech we already use...

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)