Could it be that the correct check on wind speeds wasn't done.

More than anything, however, Mother Nature wasn't always cooperative. Forecasts as to how much electricity a given facility would generate were often illusory. It was frequently the case that surveyors used insufficient methodology and refrained from carrying out expensive, longitudinal studies.

The ramifications are not insignificant. Even forecasts that are just slightly erroneous can create radically inaccurate expectations for the amount of power that will be generated. Should the average wind speed at a given site be just 10 percent lower than the forecasted value, for example, the amount of power generated will be 30 percent less.

I like this quote from a speech by the Prince of Wales, as reported by Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper:

"It is baffling, I must say, that in our modern world we have such blind trust in science and technology that we all accept what science tells us about everything – until, that is, it comes to climate science.

"All of a sudden, and with a barrage of sheer intimidation, we are told by powerful groups of deniers that the scientists are wrong and we must abandon all our faith in so much overwhelming scientific evidence."

To me it doesn't matter whether this round of global warming is due to our influence or not. The cause, if so, is OVERPOPULATION and we aren't going to do anything about that. No matter how green we get the ever increasing human population and the need to feed , clothe and house this population is putting a strain on the earth's resources with one of the results being global warming. It's nice to talk about natural farming and other practices that reduce our carbon footprint but worldwide that isn't going to make a difference. Very soon if not already China will be the largest contributor to global warming and I don't see the rest of us preventing that.

WE can't go back to the ways of pre-industrial earth so we better start looking for ways to live with a warmer planet or start banning reproduction, it is that simple and yet very difficult. I did my part, all be it not entirely voluntarily, by not producing any offspring.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

Science is A METHOD, which constantly changes its Theory's, and throws out what was 'Overwhelming Consensus'.

And it does after it finds evidence that the previous theories were incorrect. However, so far all the evidence keeps pointing at man made climate change, with little and weak evidence pointing to the opposite (I realize I might be giving climate change deniers to much credit for stating that they have evidence to begin with). So, why are we acting like science got it wrong when there is not enough evidence to disprove and overturn the scientific consensus?

Look we believed that a whole bunch of models were correct, and we only changed our assumption AFTER it was proven that the model was wrong. But no one was just ignoring the model because they were anticipating that maybe somewhere in the future someone came up with a better model that proved the current model wrong. Which is essentially what some people do here, they are saying that quite possibly somewhere in the future it turns out that climate change was not a real thing. But to anticipate on that happening is to run ahead of the available facts.

Well I have not read through most of the 8 pages yet but have some comments
1) measured climate data does go back more than 200 yrs, 400 in fact. Its called "mid England temperature data" and is the data from multiple sources in rural mid England and is un-adjusted for any effects like urbanization. I did find this and plotted it in Excel years ago, It shows an increasing temperature over 400 yrs with a linear trend with departures.
2) The climate as stated by others has varied and the planet will see a warming trend over millions of years due to the sun warming up...
3) Ocean level has varied roughly +- 50 meters several times over the last 100,000 years, this graph was in a National Geographic article on big cats migrating to the Americas from Asia across the land-bridge.
4) why does the planet go into a cooling period every time the CO2 peaks around 300 ppm in the data below, Vostok_420ky_4curves_insolation

---

why does the planet go into a cooling period every time the CO2 peaks around 300 ppm in the data below, Vostok_420ky_4curves_insolation

Most likely down to global temperatures lead both the rises and falls in CO2.
If this can be substantiated the it seriously weakens the case of global warming
having been caused by man. The graph in your post is one of many examples showing
how over many thousands of years global temperatures have fluctuated. Events
to day are not an exception to that rule but are part of that rule. The coming
next couple of decades are going to be very interesting. For they will prove
one way or the other, on their own, who was right. Were the man made warmist's
correct or was it the so called denialists?

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

4) why does the planet go into a cooling period every time the CO2 peaks around 300 ppm in the data below, Vostok_420ky_4curves_insolation

I imagine it's called a feedback loop.

I wonder if it's accompanied by a mass extinction, in either the plant or animal kingdom?

You can argue all you want about manmade warming. But the the science TV shows and science magazines I read all state that as our sun ages it will get hotter. Ive read from 500,000 years to 1 million years the Earth will be become to hot to live on.

So should we be idiots and make the situation worse, Or Start working together to get off this world.

When the sun starts to expand are planet will be Dust in the cosmos. To paraphrase Kansas.

---

[/quote]

Old James

You can argue all you want about manmade warming. But the the science TV shows and science magazines I read all state that as our sun ages it will get hotter. Ive read from 500,000 years to 1 million years the Earth will be become to hot to live on.

So should we be idiots and make the situation worse, Or Start working together to get off this world.

When the sun starts to expand are planet will be Dust in the cosmos. To paraphrase Kansas.

That level of warming is hundreds of thousands of years off and the sun turning the earth to a cinder is supposedly 5 billion years in the future.

I agree we need to take as good of care as possible of our planet regardless of global warming. But again I will state that at our current rate of population growth we will run out of resources long before it gets too hot to live here.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

...So should we be idiots and make the situation worse, Or Start working together to get off this world.

When the sun starts to expand are planet will be Dust in the cosmos. To paraphrase Kansas.

That level of warming is hundreds of thousands of years off and the sun turning the earth to a cinder is supposedly 5 billion years in the future.

I agree we need to take as good of care as possible of our planet regardless of global warming. But again I will state that at our current rate of population growth we will run out of resources long before it gets too hot to live here.

Good comment all round.

There is no predator or disease feedback mechanism to keep Mankind in check. Our control of our environment as developed over the last few thousand years, and then the pioneering work of some Edinburgh doctors about 200 years ago, have allowed us to break free of such population density restrictions.

Our population numbers are now only restricted by natural resource limits, loss of environment due to our pollution, and ourselves (culture, politics).


If we can live more efficiently, more cooperatively, and with much less pollution, there is room to grow yet. Unfortunately, our present system of corporate greed and business-with-no-morals is the present biggest spoiler... The financial markets continuing to demand continuous growth is completely unsustainable! We need to manage our business practices whereby our planet and environment are costed into the business. Natural resources have a huge intrinsic value (now in the present, and also for the future) that at present is artificially accounted as a 'zero cost' to be plundered without limit...

If we can improve our business and political practices for the good of the planet and of everyone on the planet...

The race is then on to curb further population expansion by using better education whereby people feel reassured and secure enough that they no longer feel the need for huge families to be used as a 'pension policy'...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The race is then on to curb further population expansion by using better education whereby people feel reassured and secure enough that they no longer feel the need for huge families to be used as a 'pension policy'...

As usual Martin we here on seti ahead of the curve, not many would argue against
you here.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

...So should we be idiots and make the situation worse, Or Start working together to get off this world.

When the sun starts to expand are planet will be Dust in the cosmos. To paraphrase Kansas.

That level of warming is hundreds of thousands of years off and the sun turning the earth to a cinder is supposedly 5 billion years in the future.

I agree we need to take as good of care as possible of our planet regardless of global warming. But again I will state that at our current rate of population growth we will run out of resources long before it gets too hot to live here.

Good comment all round.

There is no predator or disease feedback mechanism to keep Mankind in check. Our control of our environment as developed over the last few thousand years, and then the pioneering work of some Edinburgh doctors about 200 years ago, have allowed us to break free of such population density restrictions.

Our population numbers are now only restricted by natural resource limits, loss of environment due to our pollution, and ourselves (culture, politics).


If we can live more efficiently, more cooperatively, and with much less pollution, there is room to grow yet. Unfortunately, our present system of corporate greed and business-with-no-morals is the present biggest spoiler... The financial markets continuing to demand continuous growth is completely unsustainable! We need to manage our business practices whereby our planet and environment are costed into the business. Natural resources have a huge intrinsic value (now in the present, and also for the future) that at present is artificially accounted as a 'zero cost' to be plundered without limit...

If we can improve our business and political practices for the good of the planet and of everyone on the planet...

The race is then on to curb further population expansion by using better education whereby people feel reassured and secure enough that they no longer feel the need for huge families to be used as a 'pension policy'...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

But that still leaves 7 billion people to take care of with dwindeling natural resources. And thats just for zero population growth.

---

[/quote]

Old James

not many would argue against you here.

I will. If you don't use Linux you're a second class citizen.

....I'm a second class citizen, oh well at least I know my place now.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Brother Nick,

May I extend a hearty welcome to the elite group of 2nd Class Citizens of the United Kingdom. Your local chapter meets twice monthly at the Temperance Mission Hall in Gasworks Lane. Tea and coffee are provided, but please bring your own sackcloth and ashes.

Yours in Unworthiness,

Hon Sec.

Do we get chip butties?

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

...So should we be idiots and make the situation worse, Or Start working together to get off this world.

When the sun starts to expand are planet will be Dust in the cosmos. To paraphrase Kansas.

That level of warming is hundreds of thousands of years off and the sun turning the earth to a cinder is supposedly 5 billion years in the future.

I agree we need to take as good of care as possible of our planet regardless of global warming. But again I will state that at our current rate of population growth we will run out of resources long before it gets too hot to live here.

Good comment all round.

There is no predator or disease feedback mechanism to keep Mankind in check. Our control of our environment as developed over the last few thousand years, and then the pioneering work of some Edinburgh doctors about 200 years ago, have allowed us to break free of such population density restrictions.

Our population numbers are now only restricted by natural resource limits, loss of environment due to our pollution, and ourselves (culture, politics).


If we can live more efficiently, more cooperatively, and with much less pollution, there is room to grow yet. Unfortunately, our present system of corporate greed and business-with-no-morals is the present biggest spoiler... The financial markets continuing to demand continuous growth is completely unsustainable! We need to manage our business practices whereby our planet and environment are costed into the business. Natural resources have a huge intrinsic value (now in the present, and also for the future) that at present is artificially accounted as a 'zero cost' to be plundered without limit...

If we can improve our business and political practices for the good of the planet and of everyone on the planet...

The race is then on to curb further population expansion by using better education whereby people feel reassured and secure enough that they no longer feel the need for huge families to be used as a 'pension policy'...


All on our only one planet,
Martin

The problem, as I see it, is that those who are in control everywhere only see the short term and take actions that serve their own immediate agenda. These people are not likely to loose their control or influence. People like us who feel positive action needs to be taken to curb and reverse the population explosion are a very small minority. We are not going to convince the peoples of the developing nations that having fewer babies is a good thing and when the suggestions are made that governments need to take an active role in population control cries of genocide are heard so nothing is done.

Most likely mother nature will take the matter in hand and it won't be pretty.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

I would say that we are overdue for a pandemic of plague proportions. Not the plague as was the black plague but some disease that will wipe out 1/3 to 1/2 the worlds population. Lets keep genitcaly modifying our food source. And the over use of antibiotics has allready caused some strains to be resistant.

I belive it will be some nasty strain of the flu. And it will make 1918 strain look like the common cold. That H1N1 is killing healthy young adults now.

So what happens when half the worlds people die off? The survivors have more kids.

---

[/quote]

Old James

In the news today is Spain's new restriction's against abortions.

---

The thing I don't understand is why is there such emphasis on making people live longer by outlawing (or trying to outlaw, or least control) things that cause cancer, and then on the next breath say we need to figure out a way to control our population?

Doesn't make sense and annoys a lot of people.

The world wants a smaller number of people to live longer, not a bigger number of people to live shorter lives.

I wouldn't say "the world," I'd say a minority of people who think they're smarter than everybody else wants a smaller number to liver longer.

Wanting a smaller number to live longer goes against the idea that diversity is better.

So which is it? Go forth, be fruitful and multiply or allow some minority the authority to decide who lives? Can't have both.

Be fruitful and multiply was good when the human population was less than 100 million, but by 1900 the world population is estimated to have hit 400 million and as of last year we reached over 7 BILLION people on this earth with almost half of them in China.

You don't have to be smarter than everyone else to see where this is going and like I said before it won't be pretty. And I hope I am gone before mother nature swats us hard.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.