The End of the Beginning......

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Nick
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Message 1240784 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 19:40:03 UTC - in response to Message 1240779.  

I don't know so much...food & clothing will always be needed. Probably a restructure rather than a bankruptcy.

By the way Spain's going it's going to be a country full of secondhand clothing
shops...

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Message 1240792 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 19:59:32 UTC

Throughout all the links I've given in both threads, one point sticks out like a sore thumb...

Global prices tumble due to euro crisis

"The European Central Bank will meet in Frankfurt next Wednesday and could decide to take fresh measures to underpin confidence and prop up the struggling European banking sector. Its president, Mario Draghi, has urged European leaders to show "vision" in tackling the twin challenges of sickly banks and hard-pressed governments".

What planet are these muppets living on? It's clear for all to see that it hasn't worked, so why prop it up? Why not start afresh?
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Message 1240794 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 20:03:47 UTC - in response to Message 1240759.  

Nick, we all agree on who is at fault for all the problems -- it is the arch nemesis in the world -- Notme



Ah-ha, as suspected, we are to be the fall-guys and interestingly too the
Yanks as well. So Brussels is just waiting for us to call a referendum and
if we vote to leave then we can be blamed for the following ECM financial
turmoils. Good! lets do it and strange as it may seem years down the line
the UK will become respected more because of this action.

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Message 1240807 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 20:19:54 UTC

We've had 18 summit meetings on this crisis already. Guess where no 19 is to be held....

June 18/19 in Mexico...another "long" weekend" holiday for the privledged....Since when has Mexico been part of the EU?

US steps up pressure on euro crisis
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Message 1240811 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 20:26:53 UTC

An example, which currency dosen't matter as numbers are numbers.

A company gives a 3% payrise across the board.

An employee on 12,000 per annum gets an increase of 360

The head man on 400,000 gets an increase of 12,000

Proper application of the multiplication operator, except you forgot that 10 new people came on at 12,360 …
Economy goes down, company has to introduce cost cutting, employee on 12,360 laid off. Head man gets another 3% rise for protecting the company - how much extra has it cost the company?

answer... Zero

A proper application of the division operator, except you forgot not only did the worker get laid off, but the boss of the worker who was the head man’s friend.

No need for that. Just return to the old way of having fixed payrise brackets. It's the % game that is causing all the problems.

So everyone gets a raise of 360.

But when it goes bad a cut of 360 across the board and the company goes under.

As to those hated %’s, why is multiplication so hated? Is it because division follows in its footsteps?

If you dislike the percents so much, then you will need to stop government debt spending. Government debt spending creates this thing called inflation. Inflation is a percent. It is the reason for percent pay raises. This is to make sure as time passes everyone still gets the same. Here is the trap though. Some other countries don’t debit spend so they don’t have inflation. Soon their goods cost less than made at home goods. That is when the mass firings happen as the jobs go overseas.

But going back to Barclays and percents. They are paying their savers, what 0.5%? They are paying their investors 5.0%. Each does the same thing, it lends the bank its money. It is the job of the head man to find suckers to loan him money at 0.5%. Rhetorically, which are you, a sucker or an investor?

Finally lets talk about the captain of a ship. What should his cut be? What should the owners cut be? What should the swabbie’s cut be? The owner put the money up to buy the ship, the goods and the provisions. The captain bought the goods and provisions, hires the crew, and navigates the waters. The swabbies, they use their muscles to do what the captain tells them, but they don’t think. We don’t know what the goods will sell for when they pull into port, but that is for the captain to negotiate and hopefully guess right on the kinds of goods. Before we can move on beyond hand waving, you have to define fair cuts. I don’t know how you can do this except by using percentages. If you have a method, I’m all ears.


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Message 1240815 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 20:32:41 UTC - in response to Message 1240811.  

You're making a good case, but that case is at the centre of all that's wrong with that case.

You set fixed raises, leaving the profits for R & D for new products, expansion etc. That way, the company will always have finances to keep it afloat & only have to lay people off when its absolutely neccessary.

You're basing your case on current standards which is nothing but selfish greed & self interest as the current crisis is confirming.
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Message 1240821 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 20:44:45 UTC - in response to Message 1240794.  

Nick, we all agree on who is at fault for all the problems -- it is the arch nemesis in the world -- Notme



Ah-ha, as suspected, we are to be the fall-guys and interestingly too the
Yanks as well. So Brussels is just waiting for us to call a referendum and
if we vote to leave then we can be blamed for the following ECM financial
turmoils. Good! lets do it and strange as it may seem years down the line
the UK will become respected more because of this action.


Yup, your right there, Baz';
....and it' no good Brussels trying to stand us limeys and you yanks up on a pedestal with the view to waving a stick at us over all this. Do this and
you'll end up barking up the wrong tree.

The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1240823 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 20:47:26 UTC - in response to Message 1240815.  

A company in question that has applied this year on year out. There is a better link but it requires a subscription to be able to read the insights to that company - retail-week-com.

ALL John Lewis employees to get an EQUAL share of £120 million
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Message 1240833 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:12:28 UTC - in response to Message 1240823.  

A company in question that has applied this year on year out. There is a better link but it requires a subscription to be able to read the insights to that company - retail-week-com.

ALL John Lewis employees to get an EQUAL share of £120 million

The payout, equivalent to almost eight weeks' pay, will be shared by the group's 64,000 employees or "partners", who in effect own the 27 department stores and 174 Waitrose supermarkets.

I guessed you missed the word own. That means it is a dividend payment. But the fourth estate doesn't like the truth, it never is as sexy.


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Message 1240836 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:16:17 UTC - in response to Message 1240833.  
Last modified: 3 Jun 2012, 21:17:27 UTC

Really? So how is it that the employee on the bottom rung of the ladder has no say in executive decisions?

There has to be someone at the top as well as at the bottom. In this case, they ALL work as a team thereby preventing any real adverse effects. Look to their 2009 annual report. They had to close their Stevenage distribution centre...was any employee actually laid off? No, they were offered relocations to other new stores opened up...all of them accepted...ask yourself WHY?
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Message 1240839 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:18:53 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jun 2012, 21:20:59 UTC

Last chance saloon?

A real banking union can save the eurozone

Edit: not sure this link will show up - it's from the Financial Times (have an account)
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Message 1240843 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:24:37 UTC - in response to Message 1240815.  

You're making a good case, but that case is at the centre of all that's wrong with that case.

You set fixed raises, leaving the profits for R & D for new products, expansion etc. That way, the company will always have finances to keep it afloat & only have to lay people off when its absolutely neccessary.

You're basing your case on current standards which is nothing but selfish greed & self interest as the current crisis is confirming.

The problem is you assume without basis that the company is not leaving profits in place for R & D, expansion, new products, and even cash for when cash flow gets tight. You wouldn't make a very good head man unless you left something in the bank. Then there are companies like Apple, that until very recently have never paid a dime to their investors. Those are the companies that give stock awards that are obscene. A regulated utility company is the opposite, it doesn't put away, it doesn't have expansion to finance. It pays out dividends to the owners, however its stock price doesn't move.

You have only talked about raises and won't answer the question about a fair split between the captain and the swabbies?
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Message 1240845 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:28:13 UTC - in response to Message 1240836.  

Really? So how is it that the employee on the bottom rung of the ladder has no say in executive decisions?

Perhaps because the company needed muscle and not brain and it needed it PDQ so it hired what was available, not necessarily what was desirable.

You seem to think everyone is identical in their abilities. A common fallacy. If so why aren't you the head of Apple?

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Message 1240847 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:33:06 UTC - in response to Message 1240821.  

We all do it to a degree of course, the Germans blame the Greeks, the French blame everyone, the Brits blame the Europeans, the Americans blame Americans who don't look like them. We all do it.

It sort of reminds me of a song done by the Kingston Trio and Harry Belafonte 50 years or so ago. - The Merry Minuet:

They're rioting in Africa
They're starving in Spain
There's hurricanes in Florida
And Texas needs rain.

The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles

Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much

But we can be grateful
And thankful and proud
That man's been endowed
With a mushroom shaped cloud

And we know for certain
That some happy day
Someone will set the spark off
And we will all be blown away

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man.




Yup, your right there, Baz';
....and it' no good Brussels trying to stand us limeys and you yanks up on a pedestal with the view to waving a stick at us over all this. Do this and
you'll end up barking up the wrong tree.


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Message 1240853 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:37:59 UTC - in response to Message 1240839.  
Last modified: 3 Jun 2012, 21:48:43 UTC

Last chance saloon?

A real banking union can save the eurozone

Edit: not sure this link will show up - it's from the Financial Times (have an account)

Can use this link, Sirius:
http://www.greekcrisis.net/2012/06/real-banking-union-can-save-eurozone.html

Quote from above link...
We have reached a rare moment in the eurozone crisis: I seem to be more optimistic than financial markets. I do not believe that Greece will leave the eurozone and I see a small chance that the June 28 meeting of the European Council will bring agreement on a banking union of sufficient strength.

Do you know what they are proposing, mate!...I do.
Time for a referendum on Europe or all of us will be going to hell in a hand
cart.
The Kite Fliers

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belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1240855 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:39:59 UTC - in response to Message 1240845.  

Really? So how is it that the employee on the bottom rung of the ladder has no say in executive decisions?

Perhaps because the company needed muscle and not brain and it needed it PDQ so it hired what was available, not necessarily what was desirable.

You seem to think everyone is identical in their abilities. A common fallacy. If so why aren't you the head of Apple?


But in your words..he's also an owner.....
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Message 1240858 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:45:03 UTC

Must be the socialist in me, I simply have problems with 8 figure compensation packages for anyone -- I see it as wasteful. Part of this is a 'velocity of money' thing for me. I figure that if folks on the lower end of the food chain get wages, they spend them -- and that turns the money around in the economy.

Of course a large piece of that 'velocity' is wasted when the goods purchased are from 'money sink' countries or companies that are simply storing up profit goes for power/influence or high compensation at the top of the food chain.

I can certainly see (and accept) high compensation ratios top to bottom but currently they are out of line.

I wonder, was the US a socialist country in the 1950's?

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Message 1240859 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:46:10 UTC - in response to Message 1240853.  

Last chance saloon?

A real banking union can save the eurozone

Edit: not sure this link will show up - it's from the Financial Times (have an account)

Can use this link, Sirius:
http://www.greekcrisis.net/2012/06/real-banking-union-can-save-eurozone.html


Appreciated nick. However getting "service unavailable" Error 503.
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Message 1240863 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:48:34 UTC - in response to Message 1240843.  

It's not a question of fair splits if the Captain is abusing the "swabbies" as you put it. Unfortunately, there's too many with that attitude in the financial sectors worldwide..hence the crisis that's getting worse.

I have no problems with splits between owners & employees as long as the employees are treated fairly as without them, the captain can't make any profit at all!
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Message 1240867 - Posted: 3 Jun 2012, 21:53:23 UTC - in response to Message 1240859.  

Last chance saloon?

A real banking union can save the eurozone

Edit: not sure this link will show up - it's from the Financial Times (have an account)

Can use this link, Sirius:
http://www.greekcrisis.net/2012/06/real-banking-union-can-save-eurozone.html


Appreciated nick. However getting "service unavailable" Error 503.

I've just latched on again and I'm getting through OK...I've copied the
article and attached it below.


SUNDAY, JUNE 3, 2012

A real banking union can save the eurozone

by Wolfgang Münchau

Financial Times
June 3, 2012

We have reached a rare moment in the eurozone crisis: I seem to be more optimistic than financial markets. I do not believe that Greece will leave the eurozone and I see a small chance that the June 28 meeting of the European Council will bring agreement on a banking union of sufficient strength.

The idea of a banking union has momentum. Mario Draghi, European Central Bank president, said last week that bank restructurings should be centralised because governments have made a hash of it. Mr Draghi, along with Mario Monti, Italian prime minister, was the driving force behind a discussion on the subject during a recent informal dinner of the European Council.

A previously sceptical Angela Merkel seems to be more open to the idea, but lacks enthusiasm. It was the German chancellor who in 2008 rejected the idea of a pan-European fund to cope with the collapse of Lehman Brothers. At that time, the eurozone took the catastrophic decision that each country must rescue its own banks. That was the day when the eurozone crisis started.

Her reported change of heart can only mean one of three things. First, she may genuinely be ready to negotiate a banking union. Second, she may be ready to go for a fudge. A third explanation is that she wants to say no without appearing to say no, perhaps to deflect blame. If it is anything other than the first explanation, we are in trouble.

More
The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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