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Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III
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ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20514 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
To get some idea of the problems of using solar and wind energy read these. Wow! What a good example of media articles showing that wind and solar do work, and sometimes too well, and yet making rabid sensationalism out of known problems from suffering too rapid a change-over and too slow adaptation to new practices. The example for Germany shows that when giving similar subsidies to 'green' sources as given to the fossils, they are getting a 'gold rush' too hasty change-over! That does give an unfortunate and expensive mess of not being coordinated well. The whole system has to work right through to the consumer. So, the old fossils need kicking into touch and old ideas throwing out so that you move to the renewables generating baseload and the fossils demoted to balancing fluctuation. The way that is paid for must also change to give a value to availability. Unfortunately, old ideas, old business practice, old bureaucracy, and the old ways of costs/charges is incompatible with that... All workable. The problem is the change-over. As for the Telegraph article... WARNING! WARNING! A beautiful example of denialist kicking the boot into a propaganda piece! Such is the case and such is the surrounding FUD. All just a question of politics and lobbying and corruption? The technology is certainly workable. The transition to going clean has to be steady and balanced. All on our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
I have said a lot of things here and I would like to clarify some of them here. First I think big power while necessary is bad for a lot of things. Second small power fixes a lot of the problems with big power. Third thinking out of the box is now necessary. Too the first, big power concentrates too much in 1 place physically and politically forcing a 1 size fits all solution on everybody. It is also to vulnerable to attack, or acts of nature. As to the second small power enough for say 1 to 6 houses, if a lot of people do this then not just the utility's will be setting the rules for how the power grid is built. And when bad things happen at least some people will have power to start rebuilding afterwards. Also small power provides peak power capacity for big power at no cost to the utility's. AS to 3 thinking out side the box thinking, my first thought is that wind mill's are lousy at making electricity but grate at pumping water so if you put a catchment under a hydro power electric plant and put wind mills there they could pump a vary predictable amount of water back up behind the dam per year for a second run though this form of power storage is possibly the cheapest possible. The second out side the box idea is, if the battery's in electric cars were treated as as power grid resource then the excess capacity could be used for off peak storage at home and used for peak power return while plugged in at work. This could be done under the complete control of the car owner, need the extra charge on Friday to get to the lake for the weekend pay a little extra to charge at work, going strait home on Friday get paid a little extra for making that capacity available. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20514 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Good ideas there, thanks. There are many ways to do things. The problems appear to be very much more political and that of industrial monopoly rather than anything intractably practical... Where there is the willingness, there is a way forward... All on our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20514 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
And the costs for others already are piling up: Farmers urge minister to provide extreme weather insurance National Farmers Union estimates rains in 2012 cost the industry £1.3bn from poor harvests and higher food bills for cattle... And for quite a mixed bag of positivity and wow: Gratitude for Environmental Wins in 2012 ... Here are just a few examples of environmental triumphs that we can all celebrate from 2012: [...] This year Australia -- the largest coke coal producer in the world -- brought into effect a carbon tax. And if they can do it, so too can every other nation on the globe. ... Indeed, if the fossils pushing Australia can turn the tide, then there may be a glimmer of hope for politics yet... Canada next?! All on our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
Good ideas there, thanks. willingness is just that willingness. it takes action to move forward, and means to convert willingness. |
Terror Australis Send message Joined: 14 Feb 04 Posts: 1817 Credit: 262,693,308 RAC: 44 |
This year Australia -- the largest coke coal producer in the world -- brought into effect a carbon tax. And if they can do it, so too can every other nation on the globe. ... The Australian Carbon Tax is nothing more than a political stunt to keep The Greens (who hold the balance of power in the Senate) pacified. As a matter of fact, the first time the legislation was put to the Senate, the Greens knocked it back because it was so toothless. Even the final version was only grudgingly supported by them. Power generation companies get most of what they pay back as a rebate (to keep the politically sensitive price of electricity down) and there is no tax payable on our coal and gas exports. T.A. |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
The price of energy has always been politically sensitive, particularly for pensioners on fixed incomes, and legislation has now been introduced by an Energy Bill, to make energy companies put people on the cheapest tariff automatically. Also collective switching is being introduced where for e.g. a whole town or neighbourhood will join together and all buy their power from a single source in bulk, thus driving the price lower than for individuals. The first such schemes are due this Spring. you have it backwards the pressure on the power company means that they use all available power generating capacity even the expensive ones. small power builds out peak power that the utility's do not have to pay for. allowing expensive plants to be idled dropping the cost to generate. the same goes for gas there is currently a world wide glut on unleaded gas putting grate pressure on opec to drop the price, if enough people use less or move to electric cars opec's price will collapse to the actual market value. But bare in mind China and Africa are industrializing so more gas will be used soon. Collective bargaining will only work if there is more than 1 pie. And nationalization would be even worse what you want is to encourage new power company's so that you have more choice and there is more competition. |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
As to the folks on fixed incomes, there are company's in the US that will lease solar panels to you for 20 years and guarantee a fixed rate for that period. Something like this could be done for the needy for a 1 time cost until the battery's need replacing. |
soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6497 Credit: 34,134,168 RAC: 0 |
As to the folks on fixed incomes, there are company's in the US that will Grid connected solar panels do not require batteries. Possible exception might be in the control unit, something along the lines of a motherboard battery. Janice |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20514 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Solar power is the "in thing" at the moment, but the up front prices just don't cost in at present. The original UK subsidy to feed in tariffs, to encourage take up, have already markedly dropped because solar panels are becoming substantially cheaper to manufacture in the Far East. Nevertheless it costs at present £6000 for a 4KW system. ... That begs the question of why so costly in the UK when solar panels are priced at 50p per Watt(peak) or less... That £6000 should be £2000 + grid inverter + labour. And grid inverters are not that expensive, and the wiring is trivial. Green profiteering somewhere along the line...? All on our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19158 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Looking at my old list of suppliers of electronic parts, the best UK wholesale price of a solar panel I could find was £450 for 180W panel un-mounted. Of the list of 10 makes of panels only 3 makers have current listings. For kits of mounted panels, incl the securing kit, cableing and inverter the price looks to be about £6/watt. One thing struck me was that the life expectancy of the inverters was about 5 years. No suprise there if you consider that the technology is not that much different to PC PSU's. (my a/c number still works, even if not used for 3 years.) |
soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6497 Credit: 34,134,168 RAC: 0 |
Looking at my old list of suppliers of electronic parts, the best UK wholesale price of a solar panel I could find was £450 for 180W panel un-mounted. http://www.affordable-solar.com/store/solar-panels/CSI-CS6P-245P-245W-Solar-Panel-STD-Frame It must be significantly less in North America USD 220.50 for 245Watt I do not keep up on exchange rates but.. I am going to guess about 100 UK? Janice |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19158 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Going further afield to Europe (ND), I found a price of 320 euros for a 200W framed panel, but min order is 100 and excludes shipping etc. Exchange rate is ~$1.60 = £1, and $1.30 = 1 euro Edit] cannot link requires registration and an account. Edit2] Just seen this, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/9777016/Warren-Buffett-to-build-worlds-largest-solar-energy-project.html |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20514 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
OK... So first few hits on ebay: 245W Polycrystalline Mono Solar PV Panel: £154.95 250w All Black Ulica Monocrystalline Solar PV Panel: £161.05 36x A grade 6x6 monocrystalline solar cells PV - 135 watts for DIY: £19.01 And a grid inverter: Fronius IG 20 PV Solar Panel Grid Inverter 2kw: £174.99 The bare cells are a lot less than 50p per Watt! So, deduct 25% costs or whatever for trade bulk purchase and... Phew! All on our only one planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
As to the folks on fixed incomes, there are company's in the US that will that is quiet true but then when the grid is down so may be your solar cells. |
soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6497 Credit: 34,134,168 RAC: 0 |
If someone is trying to reduce expenses via solar the LAST thing they want to do is incure expenses of battery strings. They are not trying to install backup power, they are trying to lower their consumption from the grid. And giving back to the grid is a GREAT way to do that. Janice |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
also with mylar mirrors you can double or triple the solar panel output at the cost of longevity as long as the panels have adequate cooled. And all these prices are for finished panels. With a soldering iron a some basic knowledge of electricity and carpentry you can build your own panels at sustancial savings. the big point is for every 1630 kwh generated by solar England imports 1 less barrel of foreign oil, so even small installations add up if there are enough of them. |
dancer42 Send message Joined: 2 Jun 02 Posts: 455 Credit: 2,422,890 RAC: 1 |
If someone is trying to reduce expenses via solar the LAST thing they want to do is incure expenses of battery strings. They are not trying to install backup power, they are trying to lower their consumption from the grid. And giving back to the grid is a GREAT way to do that. this is vary true point taken. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30758 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
If someone is trying to reduce expenses via solar the LAST thing they want to do is incure expenses of battery strings. They are not trying to install backup power, they are trying to lower their consumption from the grid. And giving back to the grid is a GREAT way to do that. For the individual and only as long as a small percentage of people make that choice. If everyone went to solar then there would be no need of any power on the grid when the sun is shining. Of course at night we would need lots of dirty fossil fuel plants as they are able to ramp up and down output on a dime. |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11366 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
And that would be cleaner than what is currently being done. |
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