Perhaps, but the links perhaps make me think recruiting is part of the reason he posted. Could be wrong.

It's a close call here, Gary. Yet Major has only told us here who he
sometimes votes for plus supplied a link to the parties web site.
All-in-all coming from a prompt from me about other political parties
in operation in America. The later therefor I think puts Major on the
safe side of any thread infringements...close-call, close call.

Still, a brilliant thread, one of the best on the boards.

Sorry if I gave you the misunderstanding that I was somehow recruiting... I saw Nick (icon on his info indicates he is from the UK) say the UK had a 'small govt. party', and he asked if we had one over here. I answered and posted links to their site and their platform (to verify they were a small govt. party) to answer his question. I posted the links because today is anti-SOPA day and I am unsure how well google or possibly other search engines might be functioning due to their protest of SOPA. While I would not be sad if others (especially here in the USA) checked them out, recruitment was not my motivation, merely answering Nick's request for information.

If you find the links offensive, go ahead and red-x the post and have it scrubbed. Nick has already seen them anyway, and the links were aimed at him. I likely should have just PM'ed them to him. Again, I am sorry and won't do it again in your threads.

As to the education system it is one of many factors, but a large one.

Freezing payouts, yes COLA's are an issue. Or put another way inflation is the issue. No inflation and no COLA. Where does inflation come from? In large part the US debt. Get rid of the debt and this part of the problem goes away. Don't do it and there is a feedback loop the eventually results in bankruptcy.

You will never get the AARP to permit the COLA to be killed, so we must attack the problem a different way.

Fair points in both cases -- again, as I noted before, a significant factor in our deficit is the economy itself. Get it moving again (different thread I'm sure) and not only does the deficit situation improve, but also we reduce the excess workers problem (of course Gary, based on your comments regarding the education system, you might argue that the only unemployed workers are under educated and lack a work ethic - though I would disagree with this characterization).

I too see a bump up in the rate -- along with dumping the cut off entirely -- while (since we don't want entitlements to increase) freezing the benefit payouts.

Speaking about Social Security, has anyone figured out what the Obama contribution reduction is going to do to how soon the system runs out of money?

I see talk of raising the retirement age. No one is suggesting raising the contribution rate. Why not? Won't a suitable rate increase bring in enough?

One of the issues we have today is too many workers. How is raising the retirement age going to address this?

The problem has already been dealt with, despite the AARP. SS COLAs have been indexed to the CPI. No inflation, no COLA. Previous 2 years, SS has received no COLA, and this year they only got a very TINY one.

Gary, I don't really disagree with you regarding the education system. In addition to her practice as a psychiatrist, my wife also teaches at the state university in a different field (religious studies). I have seen some of the essays produced by students -- a few are quite good, but far too many would in my day not garner decent grades in high school. (anecdotal evidence of course).

I also do interviews of applicants to my university (Yale) -- and I will note as a counter, that those seniors are in fact quite accomplished, driven and not 'social promotion' folks -- and some, dare I say it are going to public schools.

So as a broad characterization of the failure of education I'd suggest it is a mixed bag indeed. Simple characterizations tend to fail the data test -- things are simply not so simple.

Not everyone is the same, not every teacher, not every school, not every school district. Given. The problems I point out seem to manifest themselves in the larger school systems. Perhaps the root cause is related to the size of the school system or the population density or some other factor. Maybe just better reporting making it on the wire services from larger places.

I'd also say anyone seriously considering Yale isn't a random sample of high school seniors across the USA.

Manufacturing went overseas not so much due to lack of skills in the US (the migration started years ago), but rather because it was much cheaper and profitable to use foreign labor and plant to sell to Americans. Again, a bit more complex than either I've stated either.

In some ways Gary, you seem to be seeking 'the good old days' == I think we need to figure out a way to move forward, rather than back. In a global marketplace you won't get 'reindustialization' of the US unless you can get the workforce to be happy with the living standards of Chinese laborers. Let us figure out another approach.

The loss of industrial jobs started about the same time as the first batch of "new math" kids entered the work force. I know that the populace does not have the work ethic necessary to reindusteralize the USA. The typical USA worker is soft and believes he is owed a living because he is from the USA.

Perhaps a possible good thing to come out of the recession is that a little starvation in the workers belly will teach him how important a good work ethic is.

---

What makes a party "official" anyway? I don't know why the <snip> party is not proliferating right now.

Guy,
Answering your questions... A party kinda gets 'official' status when it properly registers with the election authorities and gets candidates on the ballot under its own name. For instance, in my election precinct in the 2010 election, the party I was discussing had a candidate on EVERY race on the entire ballot that had a party affiliation on the candidates (some of the local ones don't, some do, and the state and national ones certainly do).

To be considered an official party, it also helps to hold conventions, especially national ones. The party I was discussing has one scheduled.

The party you were discussing, have they had candidates on a ballot under their own party name? Or just under the... uhh.. parent party's name?

As to your second question... I got no idea... I guess we really *are* just a bunch of kooky old geezers with a heck-busted ideal or two... Maybe the party you were discussing, being a bunch of fired up young'uns, can break away from its parent party (the same one we broke away from about 40 years ago), and make a go of it. We are likely a bit too... out of touch... and maybe they aren't... I dunno.

N.B.: No parties were mentioned by name in making this post... :P

The problem has already been dealt with, despite the AARP. SS COLAs have been indexed to the CPI. No inflation, no COLA. Previous 2 years, SS has received no COLA, and this year they only got a very TINY one.

I'm going to say that you don't know how the SS COLA works.

Yes, for a couple years no COLA was given. However this year the COLA given was much bigger than last years inflation! Know why?

And just because the last couple of years we didn't have a SS COLA does not mean it has been dealt with. I'm worried about the US Greenback achieving parity with the Zimbabwean dollar before I an eligible for SS.

---

The problem has already been dealt with, despite the AARP. SS COLAs have been indexed to the CPI. No inflation, no COLA. Previous 2 years, SS has received no COLA, and this year they only got a very TINY one.

I'm going to say that you don't know how the SS COLA works.

Yes, for a couple years no COLA was given. However this year the COLA given was much bigger than last years inflation! Know why?

And just because the last couple of years we didn't have a SS COLA does not mean it has been dealt with. I'm worried about the US Greenback achieving parity with the Zimbabwean dollar before I an eligible for SS.

I know enough about how it works...

2009 COLA was too large, due to CPI figures not being finalized before the COLA had to be fixed (CPI got revised downwards).
2010 COLA was zero effectively 'paying back' the '09 overCOLA.
2011 COLA was zero, as best as I can determine, due to politics.
2012 COLA was not very much, again due as best as I can determine, to politics... It should have been 3x or 4x what it was.

It may fail in practice during a few of the years, but if the politicians would just do their jobs, over time it would track the CPI nicely... in theory...

As to your comment re: the Zimbabwean dollar... ROFL...

There are three routes out of the current mess we are in...
1. Fix the budget, run a surplus, and pay down the debt.
2. Push the reset button... Regime change. USA 2.0... repudiating the USA 1.0's debts.
3. Hyperinflation.

Since #3 is the only one of the three that has a chance (no matter how much pain and suffering it would cause to the people... a LOT more than the other two) of leaving the current big-government, tax and spend politicians of the two parties (Rs and Ds) in power... That is likely what they are gonna try.

1. Would be painful. Big Government, tax&spend politicians are out of the picture.
2. Would be more painful. Who knows who would end up in power, or what form the new government or its constitution (if there is one) would take...
3. Swimming in the lake of fire and brimstone level of pain on this one... but the Powers that Be remain the Powers that Be...

Nope, no sir... I think you are right... That is likely what they are gonna try and do... Parity with the Zimbabwean dollar, here we come.




I prefer option 1. I have heard some advocate option 2. I fear that we will end up with option 3.

---

https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

Gary

There are certainly more 'student failures' in large schools -- probably more successes as well, numbers are a powerful thing.

Agreed on my interview population <smile> -- I was just pointing out (as you have in your reply) that generalizations present issues.

Regarding manufacturing jobs -- So it was new math that caused globalization? I suspect we both might be simplifying cause and effect here.

As to work ethic, the trick here is to be willing to work hard for low to at best moderate wages. Turns out to be an excellent case for open immigration I suppose -- or perhaps best to keep it the way it is, illegals are so much more willing to work hard for low wages it seems.

There is an element of wanting it both ways, you want that increased work ethic, but you also have no problem with the earnings and wealth disparity -- which might also be a disincentive to an increased work ethic. When I first joined the corporate work force, people tended to stay working for the same company for quite a long time and companies tended to encourage this. Not so much anymore. About the only lever that corporations had up to the recent health care insurance changes has been health insurance. Then again, corporations have demonstrated a marked disinclination to keeping a work force to. It is something of a two way street.

I suspect you are, like me, something of an old fogie -- we remember simpler times. Heck, I spent most of my 'wonderbread' years in a wonderbread locale -- small town (9,000) county seat in upstate NY. The world is a far different place today.

I wonder if in the 60's and 70's that sense of work ethic was undermined also by events like the Vietnam War and Watergate. Seems that took place during the same timeframe you are citing for the beginnings of the American downfall.

The only way you learn is by failure, getting back and trying something different. American schools have taken that away. We are too soft.

Tell that to the kids/young adults I give failing grades to.

Furthermore, I have noticed BarryAZ, that you seem to be trying to speak for Gary... rather frequently... of late. If Gary has a problem in his thread, surely he can handle it himself... Or is there some arrangement between the two of you that I am unaware of?

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=66505&nowrap=true#1186315 was posted by Gary Charpentier, not BarryAZ. Perhaps the rhyming first names is getting confusing?

The loss of industrial jobs started about the same time as the first batch of "new math" kids entered the work force. I know that the populace does not have the work ethic necessary to reindusteralize the USA. The typical USA worker is soft and believes he is owed a living because he is from the USA.

"New Math" = response to USSR launch of Sputnik. Did not even get used in the entire US. Over before I entered elementary school. Paid no attention to the how we learn. Tried to simply turn all little kids into little Bourbakis. Don't know what Bourbaki is? Look it up.

As to your second question... I got no idea... I guess we really *are* just a bunch of kooky old geezers with a heck-busted ideal or two... Maybe the party you were discussing, being a bunch of fired up young'uns, can break away from its parent party (the same one we broke away from about 40 years ago), and make a go of it. We are likely a bit too... out of touch... and maybe they aren't... I dunno.

They don't look like young'uns to me. Not a one of 'em.

The problem has already been dealt with, despite the AARP. SS COLAs have been indexed to the CPI. No inflation, no COLA. Previous 2 years, SS has received no COLA, and this year they only got a very TINY one.

I'm going to say that you don't know how the SS COLA works.

Yes, for a couple years no COLA was given. However this year the COLA given was much bigger than last years inflation! Know why?

And just because the last couple of years we didn't have a SS COLA does not mean it has been dealt with. I'm worried about the US Greenback achieving parity with the Zimbabwean dollar before I an eligible for SS.

How COLA works depends on if it is Coca or Pepsi.
One makes you pee more.

Regarding manufacturing jobs -- So it was new math that caused globalization? I suspect we both might be simplifying cause and effect here.

Twasn't just new math, but it is about that time schools began to experiment with different teaching methods. Some worked, some failed. Overall however I think they had a decline in the student being ready at graduation to earn a living. I'm sure other factors were at work too. Perhaps in a hundred years or so they will call that the beginning of the silicon era.

---

Here is part of the problem:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/01/making-it-in-america/8844/#.TxcrhUn2aKw.email

Regarding manufacturing jobs -- So it was new math that caused globalization? I suspect we both might be simplifying cause and effect here.

Twasn't just new math, but it is about that time schools began to experiment with different teaching methods. Some worked, some failed. Overall however I think they had a decline in the student being ready at graduation to earn a living. I'm sure other factors were at work too. Perhaps in a hundred years or so they will call that the beginning of the silicon era.

Roughly speaking, new teaching methods followed from new theories in psychology. I am pretty sure we can look back to around 1920 or 1930 to be the time when this began. Dewey being one proponent.
More specifically to the mathematics, as I said, "new math", following Sputnik, was not nationwide. "Back to Basics" soon followed, and was nationwide. I am a product of it, and yet I know it did not work for all.

There you go -- but go back a ways -- back to Freud -- remember earlier in this thread the mention of the Austrian economy -- well Freud was Vienese. Just sayin'

Roughly speaking, new teaching methods followed from new theories in psychology. I am pretty sure we can look back to around 1920 or 1930 to be the time when this began. Dewey being one proponent.

There you go -- but go back a ways -- back to Freud -- remember earlier in this thread the mention of the Austrian economy -- well Freud was Vienese. Just sayin'

Roughly speaking, new teaching methods followed from new theories in psychology. I am pretty sure we can look back to around 1920 or 1930 to be the time when this began. Dewey being one proponent.

Barry, are you referring to the so-called 'Austrian school of economics'?

I am not sure if it has been explicitly mentioned in this thread, but I know it has come up in related threads. And yes, it started in the 1920-1930 time period.

It is pretty much in opposition to the so-called 'Keynesian school of economics' (which occupies much of the economic mainstream today, and has since the 1930s).

The Austrian school states things like 'laissez faire, free-market capitalism is best', and centrally-planned economies (especially socialist ones) can't work over the long term... State-sponsored central banks are the primary cause of inflation, the primary cause of boom/recession cycles, and they tend to set interest rates artifically too low for too long which leads to things like excessive credit (debt), speculative bubbles, and low savings.

Generally, the left is in the Keynesian camp, the more libertarian elements of the right are in the Austrian camp, and everyone else is somewhere between the two with the distribution being skewed heavily in the direction of the Keynesian.


Notable economists whose work led to the 'Austrian school' include Weber, von Mises, and Hayek (won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1974, by the way).

---

https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

There you go -- but go back a ways -- back to Freud -- remember earlier in this thread the mention of the Austrian economy -- well Freud was Vienese. Just sayin'

Roughly speaking, new teaching methods followed from new theories in psychology. I am pretty sure we can look back to around 1920 or 1930 to be the time when this began. Dewey being one proponent.

But Freud was more about therapy/meeting of psychology and psychiatry. I refer to things such as behaviorism, followed by cognitive science ... .

Ah Sarge, it was a joke -- remember, my wife is a trained psychiatrist/psychoanalyst. <smile>.

I was hoping that Major would take the bait end talk about the Austrian school of economics. He did.

But Freud was more about therapy/meeting of psychology and psychiatry. I refer to things such as behaviorism, followed by cognitive science ... .