Major, I do think the pipeline should have been built, but it's effect on US oil prices would probably been minimal. That is because once it reached the gulf the oil would have been sold at the world price in the world market.

I doubt much of the oil would have been sold, at least not directly... It would have been refined first. Then sold to whoever.

And yes, the USA already exports a lot of refined oil products.

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https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

The Libertarian Party, founded in 1971. I have usually voted for them.

http://www.lp.org/
http://www.lp.org/platform


The preamble to the 2010 Libertarian Party Platform

Preamble

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Thanks for that, Major, I assumed that this was what America has always been about?

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

The Libertarian Party, founded in 1971. I have usually voted for them.

http://www.lp.org/
http://www.lp.org/platform


The preamble to the 2010 Libertarian Party Platform

Preamble

As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.

In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.

These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands.

Thanks for that, Major, I assumed that this was what America has always been about?

So it was... Until the Democrats and Republicans decided on a dubious flirtation with socialism and screwed us all.

---

https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

4) In some countries, tax evasion -- perhaps much worse in the US where the tax structure encourages tax avoidance versus tax evasion.

4) I don't know about how true this one is.

Anecdote: I've heard of at least two British musicians that set up legal residence elsewhere, such as a hop over to Ireland, to evade the main part of the UKs higher taxes. I cannot remember both names. The one I recall is Joe Elliott, singer for Def Leppard.

Major, I think Gary would jump in here and tell you the pipeline deserves its own thread and shouldn't be spilling into the aquifer of his USA bankrupt thread <smile>.

Gary is saying the pipeline is off topic, and California high speed rail too.

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You seem to be advocating a party here Major. Not the thread for that.

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The Democrats tend to favor the poor, the minorities, the labor unions, the environmentalists, and oppose business interests.

(That are outside, the interests of the business dude and dudettes that funnel them cash.)

You seem to be advocating a party here Major. Not the thread for that.

Gary, I'd say, "Advocating a principle" that might get America out of the poo?

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

You seem to be advocating a party here Major. Not the thread for that.

Gary, I'd say, "Advocating a principle" that might get America out of the poo?

Perhaps, but the links perhaps make me think recruiting is part of the reason he posted. Could be wrong.

---

Speaking about Social Security, has anyone figured out what the Obama contribution reduction is going to do to how soon the system runs out of money?

I see talk of raising the retirement age. No one is suggesting raising the contribution rate. Why not? Won't a suitable rate increase bring in enough?

One of the issues we have today is too many workers. How is raising the retirement age going to address this?

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Perhaps, but the links perhaps make me think recruiting is part of the reason he posted. Could be wrong.

It's a close call here, Gary. Yet Major has only told us here who he
sometimes votes for plus supplied a link to the parties web site.
All-in-all coming from a prompt from me about other political parties
in operation in America. The later therefor I think puts Major on the
safe side of any thread infringements...close-call, close call.

Still, a brilliant thread, one of the best on the boards.

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Fair enough -- Gary (I'm guessing) was also saying that comparisons with European countries and their finances is off topic as well. (I understand that some folks see the need for strict thread control even over here in the Politics board) but feel that including comparisons with other countries and their finances *ought* to be considered on topic. Oh well.

Gary is saying the pipeline is off topic, and California high speed rail too.

Fair points in both cases -- again, as I noted before, a significant factor in our deficit is the economy itself. Get it moving again (different thread I'm sure) and not only does the deficit situation improve, but also we reduce the excess workers problem (of course Gary, based on your comments regarding the education system, you might argue that the only unemployed workers are under educated and lack a work ethic - though I would disagree with this characterization).

I too see a bump up in the rate -- along with dumping the cut off entirely -- while (since we don't want entitlements to increase) freezing the benefit payouts.

Speaking about Social Security, has anyone figured out what the Obama contribution reduction is going to do to how soon the system runs out of money?

I see talk of raising the retirement age. No one is suggesting raising the contribution rate. Why not? Won't a suitable rate increase bring in enough?

One of the issues we have today is too many workers. How is raising the retirement age going to address this?

Fair enough -- Gary (I'm guessing) was also saying that comparisons with European countries and their finances is off topic as well. (I understand that some folks see the need for strict thread control even over here in the Politics board) but feel that including comparisons with other countries and their finances *ought* to be considered on topic. Oh well.

I don't want this to be an everything under the sun bash the other guy thread. Nor, do I want it do become a discussion of the boondoggle de jour or the local earmark project. Doing that would take the life out of the thread. We all know there is waste. Someone's trash is someone else's treasure. Now an existing national thing, like roads, the military or entitlements that is okay, it is national.

I'm not so concerned with comparisons as I am with the large differences between systems that most people are unaware of. Unless everyone understands the differences in constitutions, common law, culture and the like you may as well be comparing apples and rutabagas.


[edit] I'd rather see bottom posts and not top posts but that is personal preference and I don't think it has come up recently anywhere on the Seti boards. I'll answer either.

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The only other subject I'd like to address is the issue of tax evasion. When I lived in Greece (Island of Crete, 1991-1993), I saw that half the population were government employees writing rules for the other half to ignore or find loop holes in. Like, for example, you don't pay full property tax until you finish building your house. So that's why when you drive down the street, every single house has rusty rebar sticking out of the roof. And every 7 years, you add another room upstairs and you're good to go for another 7 years of not paying full property tax. I saw what was coming back then. I'm still surprised the EU allowed them to participate in the Euro currency scam.

What you haven't said if this "evasion" was a new thing or had been going on for a long time. If the latter one has to assume the tax rates were jacked up so that revenues are adequate even with the "evasion." Heck it might even be a jobs bill situation to keep construction workers employed.

As I said without knowledge of culture and the like you can not judge by American standards.

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As to the education system it is one of many factors, but a large one.

Freezing payouts, yes COLA's are an issue. Or put another way inflation is the issue. No inflation and no COLA. Where does inflation come from? In large part the US debt. Get rid of the debt and this part of the problem goes away. Don't do it and there is a feedback loop the eventually results in bankruptcy.

You will never get the AARP to permit the COLA to be killed, so we must attack the problem a different way.

Fair points in both cases -- again, as I noted before, a significant factor in our deficit is the economy itself. Get it moving again (different thread I'm sure) and not only does the deficit situation improve, but also we reduce the excess workers problem (of course Gary, based on your comments regarding the education system, you might argue that the only unemployed workers are under educated and lack a work ethic - though I would disagree with this characterization).

I too see a bump up in the rate -- along with dumping the cut off entirely -- while (since we don't want entitlements to increase) freezing the benefit payouts.

Speaking about Social Security, has anyone figured out what the Obama contribution reduction is going to do to how soon the system runs out of money?

I see talk of raising the retirement age. No one is suggesting raising the contribution rate. Why not? Won't a suitable rate increase bring in enough?

One of the issues we have today is too many workers. How is raising the retirement age going to address this?

---

Let me answer a bit more on the education system. It has inbred laziness to the American. Consider social promotion. With this there is no reason to bother and attempt to work and learn. You are going to get your diploma anyway. Consider the moron in the normal class. The kids all see him get ahead; they see the teacher make exceptions for him; they spend half their time butt sitting while he is disruptive; tell me what good work habits they learn from this?

On a different track, every kid now is expected to go to college. That is the only track in school. Where is America going to get workers for manufacturing plants or workers for farming? We know what happened, manufacturing is now done overseas and farm hands are illegal aliens.

The only way you learn is by failure, getting back and trying something different. American schools have taken that away. We are too soft.

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Gary, I don't really disagree with you regarding the education system. In addition to her practice as a psychiatrist, my wife also teaches at the state university in a different field (religious studies). I have seen some of the essays produced by students -- a few are quite good, but far too many would in my day not garner decent grades in high school. (anecdotal evidence of course).

I also do interviews of applicants to my university (Yale) -- and I will note as a counter, that those seniors are in fact quite accomplished, driven and not 'social promotion' folks -- and some, dare I say it are going to public schools.

So as a broad characterization of the failure of education I'd suggest it is a mixed bag indeed. Simple characterizations tend to fail the data test -- things are simply not so simple.

Manufacturing went overseas not so much due to lack of skills in the US (the migration started years ago), but rather because it was much cheaper and profitable to use foreign labor and plant to sell to Americans. Again, a bit more complex than either I've stated either.

In some ways Gary, you seem to be seeking 'the good old days' == I think we need to figure out a way to move forward, rather than back. In a global marketplace you won't get 'reindustialization' of the US unless you can get the workforce to be happy with the living standards of Chinese laborers. Let us figure out another approach.

Major, I think Gary would jump in here and tell you the pipeline deserves its own thread and shouldn't be spilling into the aquifer of his USA bankrupt thread <smile>.

Gary is saying the pipeline is off topic, and California high speed rail too.

Hmm.. I would say that the pipeline would be on topic. US Govt. having a debt problem because of its policies restricting / preventing economic growth in the furtherance of other agendas... I would say that the pipeline is a spot on example of that.

Furthermore, I have noticed BarryAZ, that you seem to be trying to speak for Gary... rather frequently... of late. If Gary has a problem in his thread, surely he can handle it himself... Or is there some arrangement between the two of you that I am unaware of?

As to your statement about believing that Gary found comparisons with various other nations in the developed world being off topic... Interesting since you brought it up in message 1186107...

This is an international forum. People from many different nations post. Surely we all can learn something from examining the successes and failures in dealing with various problems that all nations have experienced?