the CPY code books is about 2 inches. the ICD-9 coding book for testing is about the same. The PDR is about 8 inches. Not much fun to read and barely tolerable to search for things we need in them

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

the CPY code books is about 2 inches. the ICD-9 coding book for testing is about the same. The PDR is about 8 inches. Not much fun to read and barely tolerable to search for things we need in them

If we ever get national health care is the USA, do you think those books will get thinner or thicker?

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My premise is, the bigger government gets, the more they try to do, the less they acutally do.

Could this premise apply to any other large organizations? Seriously. Could it?

@Guy, #1. Today, can you buy just the channels you want on your cable, or do you have to sign up for a package deal?

Two of the books mentioned are essentially:
000001 Stitch on extremity
000002 Stitch on cranium
000003 Stitch on nose
...
999999 Office consultation, other

They are a list of things a doctor or lab can do and an associated number that is put on a billing form so every procedure is paid the same by the insurance, no matter the patient or the doctor. Then the fun starts as the doctor tries to get paid what he bills for the procedure and you get billed the difference.

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I recently asked my friends' little girl what she wanted to be when she grows up. She said she wanted to be President of the United States.

Both of her parents, liberal Democrats, were standing there. So I asked her, "If you were President, what would be the first thing you would do?" She replied, "I'd give food and houses to all the homeless people!"

Her parents beamed.

"Wow...what a worthy goal," I told her. "But you don't have to wait until you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and mow the lawn, pull weeds, and sweep my driveway, and I'll pay you $50. Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless guy hangs out, and you can give him the $50 to use toward food and a new house."

She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight in the eye and asked, "Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?"

I said, "Welcome to the Republican Party."

Her parents still aren't speaking to me.

So, you instilled in the young lady an aversion towards work, even as simple a task as mowing a lawn? I mean, unless you own several acres and have incredibly high grass ... . :P

I have a sickness......

Yeah, pity the homeless guy.
Who probably had no mental problem other than being gutless and unwilling to get up offa his sorry a** and account for his life.

I've tried to steer clear of this ... .
Have you had to spend any time around some of those suffering from a similar affliction?
Back in the 70s, they called it "manic depression" (a term you have recently posted somewhere). Now it's called by the cotton candy "bipolar" and people come out of the woodwork saying that's what they are like it's a badge of honor or entitles them to something.
But, unfortunately, there are indeed people truly suffering and while you've been able to keep yourself afloat and work or look for work, there are truly people that have been crushed so much by the illness ... are so far gone ... they can barely function at work, in society ... etc ... .

I see a couple of canadian flagged responses. Why do you care about U.S. politics?

Guy, it's been a while since you posted this, and you've posted a lot elsewhere, but this part of this post really surprises me.
First, the title of this area of the fora does not say "U.S. Politics," it simply says "Politics." (I'm pretty sure that others have already indicated that, while BOINC and S@H were created in the U.S., crunchers are spread out around the world and these and any BOINC fora are generally open to any cruncher. So, I will not expound upon that further.)
Second, why should I care about the politics/events in, say, Afghanistan, Iraq or Saudi Arabia? (Yes, a question with a question: the Socratic - not sarcastic - method.) Why should I care about Canadian or UK politics? (I'll answer this one, and leave the other for you. If I wanted to either look for reasons to decry universal health care or support its implementation in the USA, in either case, I would like to other countries that have it and point out either its failure or its successes or even explain why, if it is successful, it could not be applied the same way here.)

How about looking at some real numbers instead of some un-dated, un-sourced JPEG picture?

This is a reasonable request/point. When someone makes a good point, it is easier to dismiss when it is not stated well or lacking in support.

To tax for the sake of raising revenue, and *then* deciding how to spend it is why this nation is crumbling under the weight of pensions, earmarks, corruption and debt.

I am proud to say that my father us 70.5 and still working (and no, not as a Wal Mart greeter) and not drawing on that pension.

the CPY code books is about 2 inches. the ICD-9 coding book for testing is about the same. The PDR is about 8 inches. Not much fun to read and barely tolerable to search for things we need in them

If we ever get national health care is the USA, do you think those books will get thinner or thicker?

I doubt that they'd change at all since they are essentially the actual means of documenting every aspect(read reason) of the Doctor visit.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Yes, when people get tired of the quips, they quit trying. And on many occasions, I've seen the person spewing out the little one-liners indicate they've won by following up with snide remarks. And the non-responses I've personally received indicate to me the person who disagrees with me can't support what they're saying. I've asked several direct questions that would not have taken a lot of effort to answer. And they go unanswered. I don't ask people to write a research paper for me in these forums. But I've been asked to write research papers back (such as your request for me to teach you about dishonest debate tactics and their uses in these threads). When people don't respond and I see them in other threads, I consider that running from me.

Strangely, I think it is Keith with the most one liners, snide remarks (and those snide remarks used to claim he has won).

The homeless here *think* they have it bad. Here, there are places the homeless can find a meal and a cot.

Though movies should not be a source of information, I caught a bit of "The Pursuit of Happyness" being broadcast on TV. It showed people being turned away from homeless shelters.
I have a friend from my undergraduate days who apparently spent time homeless and unemployed in recent years. (He didn't think I'd figure it out, but I could read between the lines of his posts.) Perhaps I should ask him about what he may have seen in that respect.

Look a little more closely at the carpenter's union and what they've done since 1980. Unions were a good thing there for a while back in the early part of the 20th century, but now they've become a burden. Heck, his union is probably the reason his retirement pension was raided and part of the reason why his pay is so low.

Hmmm. Government (including under Republicans/conservatives) get too big. Unions get too big. Anything else that gets too big? Corporations, maybe?

But there's just no way to force everybody to produce the same amount. Our founders knew this. Our founders knew the best thing for society was to allow the individual the freedom to go out and produce as much as he/she wanted and to reap the rewards of his/her effort. As a whole, we'd produce more as a society, and the best/fairest market value of goods would be achieved. Some would have more, some would have less--based on the amount of effort.

I don't think the idea is to produce the same amount. First of all, produce!
BTW, what does Brett Favre produce?

A british woman came in the other day and said a tv stamp is around 300 pounds now. Perhaps one of our British friends can let us know more.

There's always google, it's £145.50 per year.

what is this google you speak of

Are we all Google victims?
Is this the New Religion?
Are we all trained/hypnotised to only swallow Google search results?
I know I'm in a very small minority that does not do all his web searching via Google, but I'm not hounded and presumed guilty in the disbelief that there is life without Google...
Is Google soon to be worshipped as a 'right'?
"Forced"?...
Perhaps we all should go back to church...

Skildude, Soft^spirit,

From what you both just said, it's obvious neither one of you read my post.

Let me put it in a one-liner: It's not *all* the insurance companies' fault

The article I mentioned to Bobby was "Reckless Medicine" from the November 2010 issue of Discover Magazine. It considers different angles. It is, however, worth also looking at the 3 letters they published as responses in the following issue.

BTW, what does Brett Favre produce?

Entertainment.

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https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

Ok, on health care.

I think that we all can agree that the system of health care in the USA is in a pretty sorry state at the moment. What many do not realize is that there is literally nothing that can be done about it now that will not cause at least short-term pain.

What is the core of the problem in health care today? It is no longer affordable for Joe Average to purchase out of his own pocket.

Next, we look at why this is so.

1. Greed. People no longer look upon the medical profession as a way to help their community. They, for the most part, look on it as a way to get rich quick. It ranks up there on the greed factor with lawyers, politicians, and investment bankers. Why the change? First, the general attitude of society as a whole changed, and also topic 2.

2. Health insurance. Health insurance itself has helped spur the vast price inflation of health care. Before insurance (which didn't really take off prior to the mid-1960's), a doctor had to look a patient in the eye and quote him a fee. Once insurance arrived, it became much easier to jack up fees since you just sent the bill to a 3rd party. Which leads us to topic 3.

3. Government run health care. Programs like Medicare. Tons more bureaucrats get involved, with additional regulation after regulation. Many admin. staff have to be added just to keep up with the ever-increasing paperwork loads at doctor's offices and hospitals. Many hospitals nowadays have more staff that are strictly admin than they have patient beds. Now then, the Govt. programs like Medicare have tried some cost-control measures which didn't really work, but then the private Insurance Companies copied them and use them to help fatten their bottom lines.

4. Medical Supply and Drug companies. These company's sins are manifold. The drug companies use a combination of regulations and rather bad interpretations of patent law to become cash cows for their owners. And medical supply isn't much better, especially when it comes to durable medical goods. For instance, lets say someone needs a wheelchair long term, and are on medicare. Now then, medicare will lease a wheelchair from a medical leasing company for the person for one year at around a $900.00 cost to medicare, after which it is given to the patient. However, that same wheelchair sells brand new for only around $300.00. Why then does not medicare just spend the 300 on buying the patient a wheelchair? They can't. The bureaucrats and their regulations say they can only lease it. No option. The manufacturer still gets their $300.00.. The leasing company makes a $600.00 profit. Medicare pays it, which means the tax payers pay it.

5. The law. Specifically medical malpractice law and lawyers. Medicine is not perfect. Sometimes, there are adverse effects from a medical procedure, even though everyone did everything right. Stuff happens. Well, enter one of the sub-species of sewer rats known as an 'ambulance chaser'. Said low-life pond scum lawyer talks to the patient (or their surviving family) and convinces them to sue the evil rich doctor. Juries get swayed by a bunch of emotional clap-trap and end up awarding the lawyer a huge amount of money, with some small part going to the patient/family. The doctor, to defend themselves in court had to pay a princely sum to their lawyer. So, malpractice insurance was born. All well and good, but then as more suits became successful, the premiums went up. To the point where they are not really affordable anymore.

6. The medical profession's own successes. People are living longer nowadays. The longer you live, the more likely you are to get something nasty like cancer. Plus new treatments can save the lives of people that used to be considered 'terminal'. Now then, this isn't a bad thing, but then the new treatments tend to be rather costly, So, this does tend to increase medical costs.

7. All sorts of bad habits. Now then, we know that lots of things are bad for you, like tobacco, booze, drugs, under-exercising, overeating... the list goes on and on. How this might be handled is a matter of debate. It has been repeatedly shown that prohibition does not work. Neither does education seem to work. People just want their vices. Is it really fair to force everyone to pay (through taxes and insurance premiums) for these people's health problems? Or is it fairer to make these people foot their own bills. I am not really sure. Perhaps some form of 'sin tax' on these goods might be fair, but then perhaps not. I have no clue on this one, but it *IS* raising health care costs. But, rest assured this issue is a BIG bear waiting to bite us all. It is predicted that half the people in the country might be type II diabetics in a few years if nothing is done.

8. Well... I've typed enough of the problems. On to possible solutions.

Hmm... Lets see.

We could totally socialize medicine. But that will not meaningfully control the costs, in fact costs will accelerate upwards, and will completely bankrupt the nation even faster.

We could reform the insurance industry. Again, won't control costs. They will only raise premiums.

Then, what can be done? I have no freaking idea. But, remember the eventual goal: Health care that is affordable enough to pay for completely out of your own pocket, like things used to be. Whatever is decided to do, it MUST have that as the goal. Otherwise, almost certainly doing ANYTHING at this point would be worse than doing NOTHING.

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https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

BTW, what does Brett Favre produce?

Entertainment.

Not to me. Unless you want to include his bit part at the end of "There's Something About Mary," lol.

I am of the school that believes it's funner to get a bunch of friends together and knock each other around in the snow while a brown pigskin ellipsoid shape wonders why it is occasionally thrown and carried around at semi-high speeds.
And if that cannot be done, I am "free" to seek out or create other forms of entertainment. None of which require paying a questionable person hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars per year.

Guy, there has been (and will remain) some free market principles in health care. And they have failed us miserably, due to greed and corruption. "hands off" just does not work. It works out to be mass abuse of "wage slaves".

Ultimately having everyone with coverage will improve the job opportunities in medicine. And thereby the economy. Health care needs to be available, and by the time most people decide they need it, it is too late for them to decide to get coverage. And let us face it, without coverage the costs are impossible for the vast majority of the population.

Your suggestions are therefore moot. And this response is more than they deserve.

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Janice

Everyone....

Ok, I've tried to use one of the most *powerful* methods of stating my case by not saying it at all. And I have yet to see any comment on my point. Either you're all ignoring it, or you still haven't "gotten it." So, let me state it clearly here: My premise (and MajorKong's) is that the free market doesn't exist in the U.S.'s healthcare system's current state. How about introducing some free market principles into our health care system?

Thought you'd answered that one yourself "with caveats". How limited should those caveats be? I gave a couple of off the cuff examples of the injustices that might occur in a completely unregulated health care market. Do you need more? Rape victims paying for their own HIV treatment (offender pays only works if the offender is caught and has the means to pay)?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...