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Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part II
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Byron Leigh Hatch @ team Carl Sagan Send message Joined: 5 Jul 99 Posts: 4548 Credit: 35,667,570 RAC: 4 |
to continue from the article ... The solution: "Eventually it'll become damned clear that the Earth is warming and the warming is beyond anything we have experienced in millions of years, and people will have to admit..." He stopped and laughed. |
Byron Leigh Hatch @ team Carl Sagan Send message Joined: 5 Jul 99 Posts: 4548 Credit: 35,667,570 RAC: 4 |
here is an interesting article I found from physorg Climate scientists overwhelmingly agree that manmade greenhouse gases are warming the planet, accelerating the melt of Greenland's ice, and yet resistance to the idea appears to have hardened among many Americans. Why? "The desire to disbelieve deepens as the scale of the threat grows," concludes one scholar who has studied the phenomenon. Analysts now see climate as another battleground in America's left-right "culture wars." |
Byron Leigh Hatch @ team Carl Sagan Send message Joined: 5 Jul 99 Posts: 4548 Credit: 35,667,570 RAC: 4 |
Ninety-eight percent of the world's climate scientists say manmade global warming caused by CO2 is happing ... and yet you still have deniers," observed former U.S. Rep. Sherwood Boehlert, a New York Republican who chaired the House's science committee. Last May the Vatican's Pontifical Academy of Sciences, arm of an institution that once persecuted Galileo for his scientific findings, pronounced on manmade global warming caused by CO2 --- It's happening. Said the pope's scientific advisers, "We must protect the habitat that sustains us." _In this July 15, 2011 photo, atop roughly two miles of ice, technician Marie McLane launches a data-transmitting weather balloon at Summit Station, a remote research site operated by the U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF), and situated 10,500 feet above sea level, on top of the Greenland ice sheet. Climate scientists overwhelmingly agree that manmade greenhouse gases are warming the planet, accelerating the melt of Greenland's ice, and yet resistance to the idea appears to have hardened among many Americans. Why? "The desire to disbelieve deepens as the scale of the threat grows," concludes one scholar who has studied the phenomenon. Analysts now see climate as another battleground in America's left-right "culture wars." |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
Gary, I'm sorry but I find your random comments rather difficult to follow and even more difficult to try to understand what reality you're believing... Are you just selectively seizing upon any unconnected comment to back up your wishes? So, to try to untangle your comments here: ... ps: I'm interested to see if you can see the difference between your chart for 550 million years ago and now. An obvious hint is that you've missed a little something off your chart... Thanks for the direct reference. It allows us to at least agree on what we are disagreeing about ;-) To put that into understandable English: You're taking an update from over 10 years ago for an experimental model developed about 20 years ago. We've moved on since then. Computers have advanced significantly since then to allow greater detail and accuracy to the modelling. So why linger with such old research that has since been developed further? Modelling assumptions were made to gain a rough approximation and to show the different effects on CO2 concentration between glaciated and non-glaciated conditions. That is, an experimental comparison is made. Nothing is said that it was or was not glaciated in reality. Note that glaciation reduces the rate of reduction of CO2 by protecting the land from weathering. And so?... You video: If you read the paper, that section is about an experiment with the model to make a comparison against other data. Meanwhile, there is real world physical geology which shows the earth was completely covered by ice. The physical discoveries, all around our planet, led to a long running scientific controversy as to how earth, in such a cold frozen and highly reflective condition, could ever possibly warm up for life to thrive. The steady increase in CO2 and methane from volcanoes saved our planet by generating a greenhouse that melted the glacias and generated a hot-house that promoted the age of the dinosaurs. So on that count, I'm wrong... What mankind is doing now is actually the SECOND time that increasing CO2 has FORCED rapid climate change. However, I can still stand by the claim that such a forcing has never before been done so rapidly. Less than one century as opposed to spanning a few million years. BTW your video starts cold, but the data on the chart starts hot. Something else isn't matching here. You're just making things up. Watch the video again... With strong external influences, then CO2 acts as a feedback to help things along. Only more recently for where there are no other strong changing forces, does CO2 determine/control our global temperature. And our industry and land use is driving the increase in CO2 concentration ever faster. As for suggested future carbon cycle modelling work, besides the usual plea for more data from all sources, there is a special need, in both carbon cycle and climate modelling, to consider only those land areas that have sufficient rain and are sufficiently warm to exhibit appreciable chemical weathering. This entails closer interaction between GCM models and carbon cycle models, with an attempt to look at weathering on a paleogeographic, not just global, basis. In addition, because of the importance of plants to weathering, many more experimental studies under natural conditions are needed to determine how much different plants accelerate weathering and how the plants respond to change in atmospheric CO2 Conclusion, you are NOT reading the science. You are playing a very good game of quoting conveniently old results out of context to play silly unconnected games. So why are you lingering over 550 million years ago? Considering the timescale, it is remarkable we have as much information as we do have. Note that time period is waaaaaay before the Creationists can admit to any existence at all... Oooooops! You a Creationist? Nice try but, have you nothing more recent or more applicable? Looking to the here and now (and not old views from 20 years ago), our industry is converting vast volumes of O2 to CO2, changing the atmosphere, and quickly cooking us. That is being directly measured. No other big forces have been found to have any bearing on that. I guess the fossil fuels industry and farming are the biggest political forces... Meanwhile, our planet is damned ever more quickly. All on our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21253 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
And so for the game of politics and religion: to conclude from the article ... Indeed in prayer: May those political and industrial tipping points be reached "not long" from now whilst we have some sensible options still available... All on our only planet, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31015 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Ninety-eight percent of the world's climate scientists say manmade global warming caused by CO2 is happing ... 100% of scientists held that the earth was flat and the center of the universe, that there was nothing like plate tectonics, the the universe was unchanging and steady, that there was an either that transmitted light, that planets orbited around epicycles ... |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19407 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Ninety-eight percent of the world's climate scientists say manmade global warming caused by CO2 is happing ... Scientists and mathematicans have known the earth was a Spheroid from at least Ancient Greek times 200BC, and made calculations of the diameter, the tilt and the distance to the sun. AFAIK only religions have claimed otherwise. I only ask one question to skeptics and non-believers of climate change. If (and that can be as big or small as you want) it is proved climate change is man made when do we start or when should we have started doing something about it? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31015 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Byron Leigh Hatch @ team Carl Sagan and WinterKnight: Thanks for proving the point that 100% of scientists thought the planet flat. I actually expected a post of two saying it hasn't been so for a while. Thanks for proving my faith in humanity. All: But can you warmists see the single datum you provide from the top of an active volcano on CO2? Do you not see that it is exponential? Can you not deduce what correlates to that exponential? 5% or 10% cuts don't stop exponential growth. They might get a couple more years but in reality that is nothing in the grand scheme of things. Are you willing to talk about cutting the exponential factor, or are you warmists no different than what you call a denier as you deny the exponential and claim that linear cuts are enough? I note that every climate scientist, as opposed to climate warmnig priest, ends every one of their papers with a call for more independent data. That is the key, even they know that too much of their work hinges on a single data set in places. |
AndyJ Send message Joined: 17 Aug 02 Posts: 248 Credit: 27,380,797 RAC: 0 |
(We're unlikely to get as far as the temperatures on Venus, but we can certainly make a drastic mess of the entire ecosphere... Including our own demise.) Yup. In the 70's it was global cooling, now, if you notice, it is NOT global warming, because, well, er an inconvenient truth is that it is now Climate Change. So, if we warm up, or cool down, it's all mankind's fault anyway and nobody knows for sure. Faith does not make science. "Monster, I do smell all horse piss, at which my nose is in great indignation." Kind regards, Andy |
BarryAZ Send message Joined: 1 Apr 01 Posts: 2580 Credit: 16,982,517 RAC: 0 |
I agree, what we need is long haul scientific data based on planet wide observations with at least as much depth as we've had for the past 10 or 20 years --- that data needs to span at least 100 years. Let us not do anything (rash or not) until that point is arrived some 4 score years from now. After all, one thing we do know, doing nothing is a lot less expensive. Besides, the US, India and China have all that coal -- can't waste that. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31015 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Here we go again: A SINGLE DATA SET
Taken from the top of an active volcano! This is what warmists have to use to prove their point. Single datum's prove nothing! Have they set up a station where the ice cores were taken? Have they used data from that station to show the gas caught in the ice matches the CO2 in the air at the time it becomes trapped? Have they shown there is no diffusion or other chemistry taking place in the ice over time? Of course not. If they did, it might make their single datum fall apart and they would be out their cushy job! |
BarryAZ Send message Joined: 1 Apr 01 Posts: 2580 Credit: 16,982,517 RAC: 0 |
At the corporate (and state corporate) level, doing nothing to address this is much less expensive for the corporations and state corporations at least within the corporate time horizon. (Quarters and years, not decades or longer). It is interesting that some of the same folks who see in government debt a fearful legacy for the next generation have absolutely no problem with the environmental debt being left for the next generation. The internal logic is .. interesting.
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William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
That's a gee-whiz graph which I teach my statistics students is unethical. Go re-plot it and start the Y axis at zero; then tell me what you are trying to convey and what conclusion I should draw and what action you are going to take in your own life. |
BarryAZ Send message Joined: 1 Apr 01 Posts: 2580 Credit: 16,982,517 RAC: 0 |
Right, y scale is everything, make it 0 to 10000 -- see, nothing is going on. Do that for heart rates too -- 0 to 1000 -- see, we are all the same. Heck, we could have a graph, death caused by conflict 1900 - 2010 -- Zero to 150 Million. What a peaceful world we live in. |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
The monthly variation is half of the four year gain. What do I and you conclude from that. There must be millions of people sneaking on and off the planet periodically to account for human causation of CO-2. I fail to see the warming data in the graph; so how do we conclude that man is causing global warming ? I guess that given a Normal Distribution of intelligence, half of all people are below average. Ne pas ? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31015 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
So now it is a three year time scale. Okay, explain how CO2 was over 100 times higher in the past, but the planet didn't turn into Venus? It seems the only way a warmist can is to invoke divine intervention. |
BarryAZ Send message Joined: 1 Apr 01 Posts: 2580 Credit: 16,982,517 RAC: 0 |
Gary, I suppose the answer is, it's more complicated than that. There is a human activity component to things - to deny that is to deny a fair body of evidence. There is also a component not related to human activity - to deny that is to deny a fair body of evidence. When folks develop either/or arguments, I suspect the end result is embarrassment. |
AndyJ Send message Joined: 17 Aug 02 Posts: 248 Credit: 27,380,797 RAC: 0 |
That is a typical graph deliberately designed to distort the figures to a gullible public. A quick first glance looks like the CO2 has doubled, in fact the average level has only increased by 2% over the last 5 years. Agreed. Is the planet warming? Seems so. AGW? Don't think anyone knows for sure, yet. Presentation of graphs like the above is disgraceful, for the reasons stated in the posts below it. It is because of downright misleading information such as that that I begin to doubt everything they say. You know, for me the most annoying thing about the Warmist cause if their Holier tha Thou attitude. Question the evidence, and you are of course: a)A knuckle dragging Troglodite. b)Paid for by Big Oil. c)Both of the above. Their evidence cannot, must not be questiond or you will be humiliated.(I almost wrote "terminated" :-)) While I still have a questioning nature, I will not fall into line with this new evangelism/fad. Makes me wonder what happened to all the Lefties in the UK when the Labour party slung them out. Where did they go? Kind regards, Andy |
Nick Send message Joined: 11 Oct 11 Posts: 4344 Credit: 3,313,107 RAC: 0 |
Makes me wonder what happened to all the Lefties in the UK when the Labour party slung them out. Where did they go? They went and sat on top of volcanoes measuring CO2...... The Kite Fliers -------------------- Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes. |
AndyJ Send message Joined: 17 Aug 02 Posts: 248 Credit: 27,380,797 RAC: 0 |
Makes me wonder what happened to all the Lefties in the UK when the Labour party slung them out. Where did they go? Aha! it seems so! Ps, sorry about the typo's in my previous post. I was spitting feathers. Some young person had recently come to my door trying to convince me that I should donate to the RSPB because of man made global warming. Glazed eyes, reading from a script, totally unable to comprehend what He/She/It was actually saying, and when challenged on sources, did a fantastic goldfish impersonation. The answer I had was "But the RSPB say so." See how these people work? Get 'em young. Get your cash. Indoctrination, pure and simple. Kind Regards, Andy |
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