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Hybrid/electric vehicle not eco-friendly
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skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
GM isn't helping itself when it has a Chinese company making the batteries for the new electric car. which means those batteries are being shipped across the Pacific to be installed in a factory here in America. That isn't to ecofriendly. I heard a story on NPR about how foolish it is to import food such as cookies and chocolate. It's much cheaper to bring the recipe to a local production plant and make it there then to ship all that food. there is so much more to being eco friendly than just a silly car. Heck the japanese and German car companies are smart enough to build most of the cars for sale in the US right here. This eliminates a massive amount of wasted energy used to ship all those cars. It all comes down to locality. Heck live closer to work. Or cities having convenient mass transit. not just how efficient a little hybrid car is. In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
The 89 Geo is only being tested against the 89 standard, NOT the 2009 standard The mere fact that it passed the emissions test tells you nothing about whether it meets 2009 requirements. The targets printed on the sheet returned to you are the 1989 targets, not the 2009 targets.
Hybrids are the ONLY short term solution that have any chance of exceeding 100MPG for a 5 seat passenger car. What you are saying makes very little sense. Yes, there are some slight increases in ecological costs at the beginning and end of life. The batteries are RECYCLABLE, so you should not get to count the full cost of landfilling them. Yes, there is an increase in mining costs - mostly offset by the reduced mining costs for the engine (if the hybrid was done correctly with a smaller ICE). Most of the parts from most vehicles come from places scattered around the world. Local suppliers would of course reduce the ecological impact of transport, but increase the ecological impact by reducing economies of scale. Current hybrids do about 50% better on fuel economy (10 gallons used instead of 15 for the same trip). Please figure in the decreased fuel usage over the lifetime of the car (300,000 miles would save about 5,000 gallons of gasoline - 30 rather than 20 MPG). I just do not see how the mining and recycling costs for a couple of hundred pounds of batteries can equal or exceed even 2,000 gallons of gasoline that would be saved aver 120,000 miles.
Advertised for the Hybrid version - which is 50% better than for the non-hybrid version of that vehicle.
And the number of motorcycle miles traveled had done what? The perception that motorcycles are substantially less safe than a car is indeed a valid argument. I know that I see fewer motorcycles on the local roads than I did a decade ago.
We agree that appropriate vehicle choice should be strongly encouraged. Around here, those that do not want to wear seat belts buy pickup trucks - because these are exempt from seat belt requirements (stupidly in my opinion). Many SUVs do most of their driving with a single driver (far from ideal). You DID offer up a sub compact as an alternative for better fuel mileage - I would like to improve fuel economy for the entire fleet of vehicles with out requiring people to buy vehicles so small that they are inappropriate for their needs.
I have no idea why this would be the case. Experimental plug in hybrids 20 years ago were getting in excess of 100MPG. Note that ones that do the best are all electric drive, and the differences in tooling for manufacturing are probably holding those back. There is also the perception problem, where the manufactures believe that people do not want to have to plug in their cars - this is why Toyota has not yet produced a plug in - at least according to the last article I read from them. The 2010 Milan Sedan (No, I don't know how many it seats) is not a plug in, and it supposedly gets about 45 mpg - around 70% better mileage than the non hybrid counterpart. It uses a Atkinson cycle engine which is different from the standard Otto cycle engine that current gasoline only cars use. This is one of the keys to improving gas mileage - along with substantially reducing the displacement of the gasoline engine. The Atkinson cycle engine does very well in a very narrow band of RPM and load, and very poorly outside of that band. If the gasoline engine is either on and in this narrow band, or completely off, it can do better on emissions and fuel mileage than an Otto cycle engine of the same size. You can only do this if there is some other motor that is capable of either storing the excess provided, or supplying the excess needed.
I really want to see you numbers on how even the CURRENT hybrids spend more than 2,000 gallons of gasoline equivalent on extra start of life and end of life issues - 2,000 gallons of fuel would be the fuel savings in just over 100,000 miles of use - FAR below the typical lifespan of a modern car. The Hybrid we own - which is not the best technology for hybrids still gets 50% better mileage than the exact same vehicle that is not a hybrid. Are the current hybrids ideal? No. Are they total ecological failures? No. The reduced emissions in CO2, particulates, and Oxides of Nitrogen all favor the Hybrid. The reduced fuel usage over gasoline powered vehicles of the same size favors the Hybrid. The reduced Sulfur emissions and particulates over Diesels favors the Hybrid as Diesel fuel has less stringent sulfur content requirements than does gasoline (at least in the US), and diesels will always produce more particulates than a gasoline powered vehicle. Hybrid technology should allow manufacturers to develop different ICE engines by removing the constraint that the ICE has to work well over wide range of power settings and RPMs. BOINC WIKI |
Iona Send message Joined: 12 Jul 07 Posts: 790 Credit: 22,438,118 RAC: 0 |
I've been reading the various posts here about the pros and cons of hybrids and ICE only and that little bell in my head, keeps going off. For example, in the UK, I am regularly entertained by a TV programme called, Top Gear...now, they took a Prius and raced it around their circuit at Dunsfold, flat out and got a figure of about 19 mpg (!!!). Yes, it shocked them, too. They then took a BMW M5 and did the same and got about 20 mpg. The differences between the two cars are huge, yet their consumption of fuel, was very similar. If anything, such situations actually make the rather 'beefy' BMW, a better bet than the Prius, but, only if you want to travel really quickly, perhaps. Is the real 'trick', having a more sophisticated transmission, better suited to the engine characteristics? Would it not be better to have a similar set-up, as there is, in a railway locomotive? An ICE running within fixed parameters, driving an alternator, which then provides power to 'traction motors', rather than an ICE being assisted by 'traction motors', powered by batteries which are charged by the ICE. Why not have an ICE running at an optimum setting, coupled to CVT/IVT or a refined Hydraulic transmission? Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive! |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
I've been reading the various posts here about the pros and cons of hybrids and ICE only and that little bell in my head, keeps going off. For example, in the UK, I am regularly entertained by a TV programme called, Top Gear...now, they took a Prius and raced it around their circuit at Dunsfold, flat out and got a figure of about 19 mpg (!!!). Yes, it shocked them, too. They then took a BMW M5 and did the same and got about 20 mpg. The differences between the two cars are huge, yet their consumption of fuel, was very similar. If anything, such situations actually make the rather 'beefy' BMW, a better bet than the Prius, but, only if you want to travel really quickly, perhaps. Is the real 'trick', having a more sophisticated transmission, better suited to the engine characteristics? Would it not be better to have a similar set-up, as there is, in a railway locomotive? An ICE running within fixed parameters, driving an alternator, which then provides power to 'traction motors', rather than an ICE being assisted by 'traction motors', powered by batteries which are charged by the ICE. Why not have an ICE running at an optimum setting, coupled to CVT/IVT or a refined Hydraulic transmission? The real trick is that Hybrids do much better at normal driving than ICE only. Especially stop and go (lots of stop lights or bumper to bumper on the interstate). Flat out, they have to burn as much fuel as ICE only as the battery is quickly drained, and does not get a recharge opportunity. BOINC WIKI |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30975 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
[quoteThe real trick is that Hybrids do much better at normal driving than ICE only. Especially stop and go (lots of stop lights or bumper to bumper on the interstate). Flat out, they have to burn as much fuel as ICE only as the battery is quickly drained, and does not get a recharge opportunity.[/quote] No they get worse flat out as they have the haul the weight of the battery around. |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21101 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
[Hybrids...] No they get worse flat out as they have the haul the weight of the battery around. I agree. I think the lightweight high speed flywheels now used in F1 racing cars are a much better bet for taking advantage of regenerative braking in stop-start traffic. However, best of all is still not to have stop-start traffic in the first place! Perhaps far better overall would be to beef up the networks infrastructure so that fewer people needed to do long commutes. Cheers, Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
However it always seems to have been an american tradition to live far from work In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
However it always seems to have been an american tradition to live far from work If the house near work costs $1,000,000 and the house 30 miles away costs $50,000, and the job only pays $30,000, what are the choices? Much of the long drives are simple economics - houses near the city center are unaffordable for the majority of the workers. Rents are also higher on rental properties. So, you drive. Two income households also have a problem. In our case we live near my wife's work, and I get to drive (the houses in the middle would have cost 4X as much). So I drive. No, public transportation is not a real option around here. It would take 5 busses and 2 trains and a 2 mile walk at each end. In all it would take about 4 hours to take public transportation each way where it takes about 1/2 hour or so driving on a good day. Even on a bad day I can use my GPS that shows where the traffic problems are to drive around them so it only takes about an hour each way. BOINC WIKI |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
Actually its just the opposite. Prices are cheap near the city center so the people living there are generally very low income and the crime rate is very high. Moving further from a city center typically gives one less crime. that is unless you live in metroplex like dallas fort worth. the cities have all mingled together so there really isnt a distinct line for low income and high income so much anymore. In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
Actually its just the opposite. Prices are cheap near the city center so the people living there are generally very low income and the crime rate is very high. Moving further from a city center typically gives one less crime. that is unless you live in metroplex like dallas fort worth. the cities have all mingled together so there really isnt a distinct line for low income and high income so much anymore. OK. Here, it is a little different. The exact center of the city has almost no dwellings of any sort. Just north of there is very expensive, and just south of there is very poor and very high crime. If you want to avoid both, you drive 10 miles or miles or more. If you live further than just a few miles out, you drive as there is no subway line that far. BOINC WIKI |
danq Send message Joined: 6 Apr 00 Posts: 9 Credit: 3,078,490 RAC: 0 |
"In any case, the demand placed upon fossil fuel plants to supply juice for all of these vehicles becomes enormous, which entails burning more fossil fuels either through plant expansion or new plant construction. More pollution, more global warming." But pollution will be more fixed around the power plants rather than distributed throughout the roads, right? That's *a little* better :) -Dan Q danq.co |
John McLeod VII Send message Joined: 15 Jul 99 Posts: 24806 Credit: 790,712 RAC: 0 |
"In any case, the demand placed upon fossil fuel plants to supply juice for all of these vehicles becomes enormous, which entails burning more fossil fuels either through plant expansion or new plant construction. More pollution, more global warming." The power plants also use less carbon / mile than the cars burn. Besides, there is always the option to grow the electrical supply by using non-carbon forms of generation. BOINC WIKI |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51477 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
I've been reading the various posts here about the pros and cons of hybrids and ICE only and that little bell in my head, keeps going off. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Oo-BjKzCE Iona......I luv ya. The same little bell keeps going off in my head.......who is gonna profit from this......... Not the startups......who really have something to offer. It's the 'big boyz' who already have paid for their ticket at the box office. And you know who is in charge of the box office. Technologies existed years ago that might have wrested us from our current energy dependence on the middle east. And even if you could try to divorce our world actions from our posed reasons for doing so......it would still remain........ Our world politics have long been directed by our elected politicians desire for greed and gold. I am not proud of my own government's record in that respect. I should go now........otherwise things shall get nasty. Meow. "Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once." |
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