what i meant was, if there was a good reason to trade with cuba, (say they had something we really needed and were in short supply of, or something vastly cheaper then we are currently importing it for) the embargo would be lifted, and we would be trading with them, even if only for specialized, limited, items.

Restating the circular reasoning with a different set of words does not make it any less circular. There's no good reason to trade because we have an embargo, and, there's an embargo because there's no good reason to trade. How about lifting the embargo and finding out whether there's a good reason to trade? If there continues to be no good reason for trade, none will result, but, while the embargo is in place, none can result.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

what i meant was, if there was a good reason to trade with cuba, (say they had something we really needed and were in short supply of, or something vastly cheaper then we are currently importing it for) the embargo would be lifted, and we would be trading with them, even if only for specialized, limited, items.

Restating the circular reasoning with a different set of words does not make it any less circular. There's no good reason to trade because we have an embargo, and, there's an embargo because there's no good reason to trade. How about lifting the embargo and finding out whether there's a good reason to trade? If there continues to be no good reason for trade, none will result, but, while the embargo is in place, none can result.

call it whatever you want but the facts still stand and i cant make it any more clear.

i am not an expert in economics but i would reason to believe my government has probably weighed the pros and cons of this current embargo with analytical think tanks and since we still have this embargo i believe they probably decided it is, for the time being, the best option.

call it whatever you want but the facts still stand and i cant make it any more clear.

i am not an expert in economics but i would reason to believe my government has probably weighed the pros and cons of this current embargo with analytical think tanks and since we still have this embargo i believe they probably decided it is, for the time being, the best option.

More circularity, now it's the government keeping the embargo in place because it does no harm to trade, and not trading because there's an embargo. Since when has the government probably weighing things up been a satisfactory answer? FWIW the official reason for the embargo is political in nature (that Cuba does not have a democratic system of government) not economic.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

what i meant was, if there was a good reason to trade with cuba, (say they had something we really needed and were in short supply of, or something vastly cheaper then we are currently importing it for) the embargo would be lifted, and we would be trading with them, even if only for specialized, limited, items.

You're looking at trade with Cuba as the US buying from Cuba. The US isn't going to buy much from Cuba, Cuba is going to buy from US. Computers, cars, phones, etc. And with the billions in tourism, they can afford it.

This isn't about lifting the embargo so that we can buy sugar. It's about lifting it so that we can have a customer and make a buck.

the physical location of cuba and the fact that they got along pretty well with the former ussr is the only reason these ussr made missles were ever on cuban soil.

Not exactly. The reason that Soviet missiles were on Cuban soil was due to the fact that we had placed missiles on the Soviet border with Turkey. The Jupiter missile was so close, it was visible from Soviet soil. The Soviet counter was to put missiles in Cuba.

We are basically the only country with an embargo with Cuba. Mexico and Canada trade with Cuba. So our plan i quite a world size failure. THe only people that really really want an embargo with Cuba are Cuban American Immigrants. unfortunately this is a 45+ year failed policy. Sadly Cuba is so poor as a nation that they couldn't afford to buy anything if we cancelled the embargo

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

We are basically the only country with an embargo with Cuba. Mexico and Canada trade with Cuba. So our plan i quite a world size failure. THe only people that really really want an embargo with Cuba are Cuban American Immigrants. unfortunately this is a 45+ year failed policy. Sadly Cuba is so poor as a nation that they couldn't afford to buy anything if we cancelled the embargo

I think the "people" who want the embargo are the companies whose operations were nationalized when Castro took power and never got paid for what they see as theft.

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In the 1860's the United States fought a war with it's self over slavery. From my point of view, a dictatorship like Cuba is little more than large scale slavery. Before we had the war, many people liked the cheap cotton and tobacco we were getting from the south and were willing to ignore the fact that people were enslaved. Have we not learned anything in 150 years?

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In the 1860's the United States fought a war with it's self over slavery. From my point of view, a dictatorship like Cuba is little more than large scale slavery. Before we had the war, many people liked the cheap cotton and tobacco we were getting from the south and were willing to ignore the fact that people were enslaved. Have we not learned anything in 150 years?

And very principled your view is too. How many other nations fall under this category? Should we cease trade with them also?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I think there are nations we are trading with that we shouldn't be, or not and the level we currently are. I can understand trade such as food or medicine that provides direct benefit to the people of the country, but to allow the country to obtain weapons so they can continue to suppress the people, that is another story. If it aids the existing government more than the people, it should not be traded. That includes allowing the government to obtain cash that they can use to buy what they want from someone else.

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heck if you expand the definition of slaery to include people that are econiomically enslaved to low wage jobs then half of the US is enslaved.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Those people have the option to leave their job, vote for a government that will allow better jobs to be created or leave the country. Slavery is the lack of choice and has nothing to do with the amount of money you are earning. A few of the top CEO's in the USA work for a dollar a year. Are they slaves? Many retried people do charity work for nothing. Are they slaves? Redefining slavery will not fly as an argument.

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Redefining slavery will not fly as an argument.

Isn't that what you did though?

From my point of view, a dictatorship like Cuba is little more than large scale slavery.

Looks that way to me. Who buys and sells the people in Cuba? Who transports them overseas with little care to their health and safety? Not so much like the form of slavery ended in the US as a consequence of the Civil War after all ...

FWIW i think skildude was referring to wage slaves, that definition already exists. The CEOs you mentioned for the most part do not qualify.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Slaves were not allowed to quit their job. Slaves were allowed to earn and save money to buy their freedom. Slaves were not allowed to vote or else they would have voted for their freedom. Slaves were not allowed to go anywhere their master didn't approve of. While buying and selling of slaves did take place, Castro just stoled the whole country, people and all. I am not sure where I am redefining the meaning of slavery and it sounds a lot like Cuba.
As for the CEOs, I said a few. I know most of them are well payed if not over payed.
While the Civil war did for the most part end slavery, share cropping existed for a long time afterward. Because a limited number of other options and pole taxes, for many, share cropping became a slavery lite. That was the reason why a second battle was fought in the 1950s and 1960s to finish off what was left undone by Lincoln's death.

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wages slaves can quit a job and make a move to the same job for the same wages. thus wage slavery. Without an education or a business a person will pretty much be a wage slave for most of their lives.

I think low end wage slavery where 40 year old mothers of 4 work as waitress/hostess/ cashier for minimal wages and negligible benefit is slavery. Oh sure they make just enough to keep an apartment and have a small tv which they can watch basic cable. But can this person enjoy a trip to Cancun or some other exotic place. Probably not in their lifetime. Heck I know a lot of folks here in Texas that haven't been more than 200 miles from home ever. They don't have the desire or the money to make these things happen. Heck one Texs family I know traveled to Vegas by car made a small side trip to the California border crossed it and then came back just so they could say they'd been to California.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

How is it that you are comparing the millions who suffered under the masters whip and the hundreds of thousands of union solders who gave their life to free them to many people who made poor life decisions? Are you willing to give up all the extra money you have so someone who felt it wasn't important to finish high school can live as well as you are? Yes I do feel sorry for some of those people, but when you have a woman who feels it's not important to have a responsible husband before having a kid you have to ask if cleaning up their mess is in their best interest. I have made mistakes in my life and no body rushed in to clean up my mistakes. I learned by cleaning them up myself. Some people do have more lucky breaks in their life than can be expected but others set goals and work to reach them. Why sit and watch a TV on basic cable, when you could be going to night school and prepare yourself for a better job? It's all about what is important in your life and for some people what is important is to sit around and watch basic cable on a small screen TV. Don't forget the bible line, give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for a life time. Go to these people and ask them how you can help them prepare for a better job. I suspect you will find them saying in one way or another "It's non of your business".
In my life I have alway been careful about giving money to help people, but my offer of time to help them is unlimited. No question is to dumb to ask me if you don't know the answer. The problem I do find is that often my advice is not welcome so when that happens, I don't push the issue. They have told me they want to do it their way even if it is wrong.

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It might not be the "best" but, legalization of marijuana and then taxing it like cigarettes could mean a fair amount of money for the states and federal government. Some states are almost there now. The major advantage would be that almost 100% of the "manufacturing" would be domestic. Also, think of all the people it would employ in the cultivation process. One the other hand, you have to feel sorry for all the police that would have to begin doing real law enforcement instead of busting the "low hanging fruit" of pot smokers.

skildude

Sadly Cuba is so poor as a nation that they couldn't afford to buy anything if we cancelled the embargo

Billions in tourism dollars. I'd go to Cuba if the removed the embargo. Definitely. So would thousands of other Americans.

Dena

Those people have the option to leave their job, vote for a government that will allow better jobs to be created or leave the country. Slavery is the lack of choice and has nothing to do with the amount of money you are earning.

So basically you're saying that half or more of the country being wage slaves is of their own doing or complacency? Lack of motivation? Not plausible. I don't for a second believe that wage slaves or the rampant poverty in the US is simply due to the poor or underpaid not exercising their power to better themselves. Tell me, how do these people think, "Well I could get more money and a better job and be successful, but eh, I'm just not going to"??

Dena

How is it that you are comparing the millions who suffered under the masters whip and the hundreds of thousands of union solders who gave their life to free them to many people who made poor life decisions?

Uh, you're comparing Cubans that enjoy free healthcare and education along with one of the highest life expectancies and literacy rates in the world with slaves in the US. Pick one or the other, but don't say that others can't compare when you're comparing a nation that has a people with a higher standard of living than most Latin American countries that "enjoy" republic based capitalist systems. Take a look at El Salvador, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, or Colombia if you really think that the Cubans have it that bad.

You may disagree with Cuban politics, but if you compare Cuba to their Latin American counterparts, it's easy to see where the real suffering is going on; right on your border.

How is being economically supressed a poor life decision? Coming from an econimically suppressed family I can tell you its no cake walk. Start out with low expectations because everyone in your family knows that it costs real money to get a secondary education. Can you say you are the first in your family to ever graduate from a University? I don't like hearing from people born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouth complain aobut lazy poor people. Guess what Lazy is economically diverse. So yes we have deep seated problems in this country. We are the Haves and teh Have nots. We used to have the mave a bits but the Last 8 years pretty much took care of that. So looking back at history and how the Americans rebelled against their overlords that gladly taxed and didn't represent their interests. We are in a new yet same boat. We have the have being represented and the have nots getting a crumb.
The land of opportunity has come and gone. now its just a matter of survival for most. If surviving is your lifestyle wouldnt your job make you a slave.

Certainly there are the folks out there that snicker at the fools getting an education and then complain about how welfare ain't paying them enough to stay at home. But thats a small minority of people. For the most part folks want to get ahead of the rat race . the problem is that wages generally never increase faster than inflation. So by staying at a job and being "loyal" an individual can look forward to eventually making less and less money due to inflation. The only way to make more is to jump jobs every few years all the while hoping that the wages/benefits are higher than before.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I was the first of my family to attend a university. I have worked at manual labor. I have eaten meals of beans because that was about all we could afford. I learned how to keep my car running and how to rebuild an engine so I could get by in hard times, The only silver that was around our house was what they were putting in coins and teeth at the time.
This is why I offer what ever advice I can provide. People who talk to me will know how to do what they want but it will be up to them to do it!
I was lucky in that I never starved and I had parents that were willing to help as much as they could but I didn't take all of the help they offered. I knew that some of my goals had to be reached through my effort.
I lived through Jimmy Carter where we saw a car costing $2000 go up to $6000 and you better get ready because when the economy starts to recover, it's going to happen again. With all the money we have been getting from China and the way the printing presses have been running, that money is going to drive up prices like we haven't seen in a long time.
I have seen many people who always have all the gadgets, vacations and new cars but never have any money. I on the other hand drive a 96 car that I may drive for 10 more years, don't own a flat screen tv, do own my house free and clear and spend a little more on computer hardware because it's work related. My vacations cost only a few hundred dollars and I try not to to eat out more than once a week. I live like I am poor and as the result I am able to save money,
My sister quit high school but after a few years, decided she wanted more. She got her GED and attended classes after work. She now has the title of engineer at work. She did have a little luck with stock options in the company and she now owns her house, a rental house, some land she want to use for a vacation spot and she has put away money for retirement.
If you are unable to succeed in this country, the first place you should look is at yourself.

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Here is something I find disturbing but it applies to the way this thread has been going. It a story about how 1 in 7 girls at a high school are expecting. You will find it here

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