I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

Id Say 1000 years of occupying, starving, and impoverishing a nation for no reason would be a good reason to fight back. The UK makes the Israelis look like party boys

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

Id Say 1000 years of occupying, starving, and impoverishing a nation for no reason would be a good reason to fight back. The UK makes the Israelis look like party boys

So, 50+ years after the creation of the official Irish Republic (Eire) it was still ok to fight back, but 60 years of continued occupation, starving and impoverishing is not? I'm glad that the leadership of the IRA does not agree with your view, which you again demonstrate does not depend upon reality. I guess you would support an uprising by Native Americans given the US's record of occupying, starving and impoverishing them?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

Id Say 1000 years of occupying, starving, and impoverishing a nation for no reason would be a good reason to fight back. The UK makes the Israelis look like party boys

So, 50+ years after the creation of the official Irish Republic (Eire) it was still ok to fight back, but 60 years of continued occupation, starving and impoverishing is not? I'm glad that the leadership of the IRA does not agree with your view, which you again demonstrate does not depend upon reality. I guess you would support an uprising by Native Americans given the US's record of occupying, starving and impoverishing them?

I am not saying it the Irish people did. What is interesting is that the british won't have much choice in governing N. Ireland in about 40 years. A Catholic friend from N. Ireland told me the Catholics are "outbreeding" the protestants and by 2050 will have a simple majority in population through the 6 counties. This will in all likelihood present N. Ireland with a Catholic ruling party that will immediately align itself with the rest of Ireland.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

Id Say 1000 years of occupying, starving, and impoverishing a nation for no reason would be a good reason to fight back. The UK makes the Israelis look like party boys

So, 50+ years after the creation of the official Irish Republic (Eire) it was still ok to fight back, but 60 years of continued occupation, starving and impoverishing is not? I'm glad that the leadership of the IRA does not agree with your view, which you again demonstrate does not depend upon reality. I guess you would support an uprising by Native Americans given the US's record of occupying, starving and impoverishing them?

I am not saying it the Irish people did. What is interesting is that the british won't have much choice in governing N. Ireland in about 40 years. A Catholic friend from N. Ireland told me the Catholics are "outbreeding" the protestants and by 2050 will have a simple majority in population through the 6 counties. This will in all likelihood present N. Ireland with a Catholic ruling party that will immediately align itself with the rest of Ireland.

Bold emphasis added.

Too funny, deflect all you want to the Irish question, the fact is that you think the Irish had a case to be violent even after a democratic vote and the creation of a nation, due to what you consider to be a brutal occupation, yet you won't consider the same for Palestinians, let alone the Native Americans. Do I hear double standards anyone?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

Id Say 1000 years of occupying, starving, and impoverishing a nation for no reason would be a good reason to fight back. The UK makes the Israelis look like party boys

So, 50+ years after the creation of the official Irish Republic (Eire) it was still ok to fight back, but 60 years of continued occupation, starving and impoverishing is not? I'm glad that the leadership of the IRA does not agree with your view, which you again demonstrate does not depend upon reality. I guess you would support an uprising by Native Americans given the US's record of occupying, starving and impoverishing them?

I am not saying it the Irish people did. What is interesting is that the british won't have much choice in governing N. Ireland in about 40 years. A Catholic friend from N. Ireland told me the Catholics are "outbreeding" the protestants and by 2050 will have a simple majority in population through the 6 counties. This will in all likelihood present N. Ireland with a Catholic ruling party that will immediately align itself with the rest of Ireland.

Bold emphasis added.

Too funny, deflect all you want to the Irish question, the fact is that you think the Irish had a case to be violent even after a democratic vote and the creation of a nation, due to what you consider to be a brutal occupation, yet you won't consider the same for Palestinians, let alone the Native Americans. Do I hear double standards anyone?

UMMM I don't think I'm the only one that thought the Brits carried a heavy hand against most if not all the countries they occupied. Scotland, Ireland, India, America all felt the abuse. No need to be an apologist for a country with the bad habit of creating enemies due to heavy handed policies. Lately the US has found itself doing the same thing.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I assume your post was an attempt at Irony. Perhaps if we had Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. Or El Paso. This would be a similar situation. We have nightly reports from the cities where they were constantly forced to seek cover from the rockets... you get the point. Is it right for one socalled nation to lob rockets at another without any retaliation expected. THe fact that Hamas intentionally hides behind civilians including women and children tells me how honorable a fighting force they are.

I lived in the UK while we had the IRA blowing up buses, trash cans at train stations, etc. For an idea of what I have lived through take a look at this post, then talk to me about Mexican nationals sending rockets into San Diego. To my knowledge, the British did not launch an attack on Eire comparable to the one Israel launched against Gaza at any time during the Troubles. Not to say that the British record is spotless on this matter.

To call Gaza anything like a nation demonstrates how far from reality your view of the situation is.

Id Say 1000 years of occupying, starving, and impoverishing a nation for no reason would be a good reason to fight back. The UK makes the Israelis look like party boys

So, 50+ years after the creation of the official Irish Republic (Eire) it was still ok to fight back, but 60 years of continued occupation, starving and impoverishing is not? I'm glad that the leadership of the IRA does not agree with your view, which you again demonstrate does not depend upon reality. I guess you would support an uprising by Native Americans given the US's record of occupying, starving and impoverishing them?

I am not saying it the Irish people did. What is interesting is that the british won't have much choice in governing N. Ireland in about 40 years. A Catholic friend from N. Ireland told me the Catholics are "outbreeding" the protestants and by 2050 will have a simple majority in population through the 6 counties. This will in all likelihood present N. Ireland with a Catholic ruling party that will immediately align itself with the rest of Ireland.

Bold emphasis added.

Too funny, deflect all you want to the Irish question, the fact is that you think the Irish had a case to be violent even after a democratic vote and the creation of a nation, due to what you consider to be a brutal occupation, yet you won't consider the same for Palestinians, let alone the Native Americans. Do I hear double standards anyone?

UMMM I don't think I'm the only one that thought the Brits carried a heavy hand against most if not all the countries they occupied. Scotland, Ireland, India, America all felt the abuse. No need to be an apologist for a country with the bad habit of creating enemies due to heavy handed policies. Lately the US has found itself doing the same thing.

I did not make a case that the British were heavy handed or otherwise, merely that after Eire had been created, you maintained that the IRA had good reason to mount attacks on the British mainland against predominantly civilian targets, yet condemn Palestinian groups for employing similar tactics. Again deflecting from the thread subject of Israel/Palestine.

BTW, Scotland is still part of the UK, India is an ally and part of the Commonwealth, and the US was an ally in WWI, WWII, Iraq 1 and continues to be an ally in Iraq 2 and Afghanistan. That's your idea of making enemies? It seems the distance between your worldview and reality is greater than I had appreciated.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

This is my 2 cents. I have read through many responses and statements in this thread. The Palestine and Israel conflict has fascinated me since I was young (starting around 1976). To those who are Jewish and Palestinian, an outsiders response can be very hurtful and unpleasant. Both sides are like two children fighting over control of one television. First off Israel needs to bare in mind that the property they occupy was taken from Palestine, this comment will draw much fire. Palestine needs to understand that Jews have been in their realm for a few millennium, that they have by now become part of the land.

What enters is the problem of religion. Both religions are extreme, and both have their prejudices (yes many Jews are prejudice just read their holy books) Israel being the more powerful of the two will allow Palestine to remain Islamic, and Palestine is hurt that anyone has the authority or power to allow them anything. The Jews felt the same way when they were part of the Roman empire. Then we enter the ideal that certain real estate is sacred to both parties. Of which both sides need to remove this ridiculous religious extremism. Very much like to urban gangs tagging certain blocks in a fight for identity.

On the topic of real estate the Jews should feel a bit of humility when they send pilgrims to settle in the Gaza, how is it you have the right to take Palestine's land and settle it for yourself? Many Israeli settlements are on bombed out Palestinian cities, villages, and farms. Shame on you. Shame on Palestine for the psychological warfare of suicide bombs, rocket attacks on civilian cities.

The killing needs to stop on both sides, at this point blaming either side for drawing first blood is useless. If you trace the conflict back, there are numerous acts of war perpetrated by both people. To quote Dr. Phil (I hate it when he is right), "Someone needs to be the hero in this situation."

There is no easy resolve since both sides cling to primal emotions such as pride, fueled by antiquated religious identity. I think in the end it will end up being very similar to the fate of American Indians and the European settlers. The more powerful Colonial styled government (Israel) will end up smothering Palestine until there is almost nothing left to their culture and identity. Of course this is sad, but a mere mechanism of mother nature.

The only way they would resolve with one another is to find a common enemy. Put into a situation where they need each other for there very lives.

Well that's my two cents worth. Don't spend it all in one place. Remember before you explode into a super nova, this is only opinion. Heck I didn't start this conversation.

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-Articulas

"Every Choice Makes a Sacrifice"

"Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is an old forgery was also exported to Germany, where it first appeared in 1919..

Hmmm I got this from Wikipedia too..
The Protocols, far from being a "discovered" document as it was claimed to be, was in fact deliberately fabricated sometime between 1895 and 1902 by Russian journalist Matvei Golovinski.

Just goes to show..
Never trust anything purportedly written by or inspired by a God to run your life, like the Torah, Bible, Koran, Talmud or anything by Crowley - its all FICTION.

If israel is the land of the children of god, then someone better tell god he got squatters.

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The actions of Israel are seen by some in Israel as a war crime The neighborhood bully strikes again

And as the following points out, the issues surrounding the Israel/Palestine conflict are complex.

JOHN BERGER ON GAZA

December 29, 2008, 2:49 am
Filed under: Gaza, Israel | Tags: John Berger
A message from the British writer and art critic, John Berger.

“We are now spectators of the latest - and perhaps penultimate - chapter of the 60 year old conflict between Israel and the Palestinian people. About the complexities of this tragic conflict billions of words have been pronounced, defending one side or the other.

Today, in face of the Israeli attacks on Gaza, the essential calculation, which was always covertly there, behind this conflict, has been blatantly revealed. The death of one Israeli victim justifies the killing of a hundred Palestinians. One Israeli life is worth a hundred Palestinian lives.

This is what the Israeli State and the world media more or less - with marginal questioning - mindlessly repeat. And this claim, which has accompanied and justified the longest Occupation of foreign territories in 20th C. European history, is viscerally racist. That the Jewish people should accept this, that the world should concur, that the Palestinians should submit to it - is one of history’s ironic jokes. There’s no laughter anywhere. We can, however, refute it, more and more vocally.

Let’s do so.”

John Berger

27 December 2008

Brilliant!

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Life is short so, live it well.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians", pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

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