A lot has changed since I last participated in the SETI program several years ago. For one, we now have something called BOINC. I've been unable to find any user manual for this program on this site or anywhere else. The Help menu directs me to a list of quite a few people who are supposed to be online helpers via chat. Not a single one was online, and this was around 6pm on a weekday evening. The BOINC program just sits there telling me it is waiting to contact the servers. It doesn't tell me WHAT it is waiting for. Is it something I need to do? Something that eventually gets it going? It reminds me very much of a typical poorly written, poorly documented PC program with a lousy user interface. Just look at the screens. The buttons. Is this a leftover windows 3.1 application? Come on, this is supposed to be SETI! It used to be flashy and cool. Now it reminds me of something my IT department wants me to use.

Maybe I'll come back in a few more years and see if it's moved into the 21st century.

I'm with you. I used to run the old version of SETI years ago and really wanted to get back into it (especially since I have a new(ish) quad-core Intel Mac). However, this BOINC nonsense is for the birds. I thought I was fairly tech savvy but this is beyond me. You have to be a hard-core Linux user for some of this to make sense. I have no problems running Folding@home from a command line but BOINC is too complicated. Sorry SETI, Folding@home will continue to get all of my spare compute cycles until you dump BOINC.

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Both people in this thread have exactly one post in their entire account history. That means that your post here is your only post in the SETI fora, and neither of you are willing to ask for help? You just want to dump and run without asking for assistance?

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I wonder if they tried to install the command line version of the software.

I know with a fresh install it automatically takes you to a add project screen and you can pick which one you want to run from a list.

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Both people in this thread have exactly one post in their entire account history. That means that your post here is your only post in the SETI fora, and neither of you are willing to ask for help? You just want to dump and run without asking for assistance?

No, my intention wasn't to "dump & run", it was to express my frustration in participating in SETI in what USED to be a pleasant and fairly straightforward experience. And FYI, I DID ask for help, to any one of those online helpers who were not online. That's what BOINC suggested I do. I looked for a user manual. I read the FAQ. Why isn't there a user manual for BOINC? Why should I have to struggle to get this info? Sorry, but it's just a bit more than what I bargained for when I thought I wanted back into SETI.

To be blunt about it, if the app wasn't so Windows-ish and 1990s-ish I would've probably tried harder. It looks just too clunky for my taste. It used to look cool, and that was part of the fun.

Both people in this thread have exactly one post in their entire account history. That means that your post here is your only post in the SETI fora, and neither of you are willing to ask for help? You just want to dump and run without asking for assistance?

No, my intention wasn't to "dump & run", it was to express my frustration in participating in SETI in what USED to be a pleasant and fairly straightforward experience. And FYI, I DID ask for help, to any one of those online helpers who were not online. That's what BOINC suggested I do. I looked for a user manual. I read the FAQ. Why isn't there a user manual for BOINC? Why should I have to struggle to get this info? Sorry, but it's just a bit more than what I bargained for when I thought I wanted back into SETI.

To be blunt about it, if the app wasn't so Windows-ish and 1990s-ish I would've probably tried harder. It looks just too clunky for my taste. It used to look cool, and that was part of the fun.

Well, I'm sorry about your frustration. The online help is manned by volunteers who offer their time and experience on their own. There will be times when no one is available to help.

There is exactly 5 staff members on SETI, and most of their time is spent trying to fix server problems, or program new updates, or other important work. This is why they have made these message boards, so that users who are having problems can leave a message and someone can come in to help you.

While I agree that BOINC should come with a user manual, the best we have right now is the BOINC FAQ Service who's link can be found in my signature.

To be honest, I don't think the software is that bad, but it is a major change from the old SETI "Classic" software that you're probably used to using. It takes a little getting used to (learning curve), but once you become familiar with it, its not all that bad. I also agree that the interface could be made more 'sexy' or intuitive, but the great thing about BOINC is that its an ongoing development software and many suggestions by users have gone into improving the software for the user experience.

I even had a couple non-techy friends install and run BOINC to see if it was truly simple to use and easy to set up, and they did so successfully within minutes. This doesn't mean some users aren't bound to have problems. If any software didn't have its share of user problems, I'd be surprised, and that's why support is offered for those with problems.


So, more to the point, what problem are you having? Is there something we can help with? How can we help get you up and running with BOINC?

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i just laugh at ppl thinking that any software, especially free ones is hard to use or let alone can't figure out how to use it in the right way.. But then I'm a geek, so maybe these 2 guys aren't at all mac geeks.. BOINC to you 2 ppl is way better then just SETI@Home of the late 90's way why, cause there are other projects using boinc, that you can also join when SETI is having problems hence its alot more efficient. Just my 2 Cents.

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I agree with everything you said, as a SETI user since 1999 I have been witness to its downward spiral since the introduction of BOINC. It is garbage. Reminds me of Microsoft and Windows VISTA. People hate it and complain they want XP back. Microsoft says: TOO BAD and stops production of XP. I buy a MAC after 15 years of owning a PC.

DUMP and RUN ? Why not ? SETI is UNRESPONSIVE to the complaints of its users ( like Microsoft ). We should have the option to run classic SETI. . . which WAS COOLER than this BOINC JUNK. I have not been able to get work for 3 days, think SETI updates their website ? NOOOOOO. I mean. . . how hard is that ? It a DAILY update too much to ask ?

If I owned a software company and my programmers produced an application like BOINC I would fire them on the spot.

My 2 cents.

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I agree with everything you said, as a SETI user since 1999 I have been witness to its downward spiral since the introduction of BOINC. It is garbage. Reminds me of Microsoft and Windows VISTA. People hate it and complain they want XP back. Microsoft says: TOO BAD and stops production of XP. I buy a MAC after 15 years of owning a PC.

DUMP and RUN ? Why not ? SETI is UNRESPONSIVE to the complaints of its users ( like Microsoft ). We should have the option to run classic SETI. . . which WAS COOLER than this BOINC JUNK. I have not been able to get work for 3 days, think SETI updates their website ? NOOOOOO. I mean. . . how hard is that ? It a DAILY update too much to ask ?

If I owned a software company and my programmers produced an application like BOINC I would fire them on the spot.

My 2 cents.

Well the problem with your suggestion is that there is no more funding for SETI. The only way to allow SETI to survive was to port it over to BOINC and let it run off those servers. If it weren't for BOINC, you'd have no SETI, not even SETI Classic. For more information, please read Matt Lebofsky's post about the subject.

As for being ready to dump and run, well, that's your choice. If you hate BOINC that much, then go for it. If you really aren't willing to learn a new system as easy as BOINC, then I guess you have no choice but to leave.

And as for the server problems, there's bound to be problems with any project. SETI has the largest community on BOINC and things are bound to break from time to time. The important thing to remember is that SETI never promised 100% uptime. If you don't want your CPUs going idle, the great thing about BOINC is that you can always join another project and contribute to more science.

Personally, I find BOINC extremely easy to use, even my non-techy friends can install it, attach to a project and leave it alone. I'll never really understand it when people hate BOINC so much when its so simple.

But if you have a problem, and you can take the time to trash BOINC here on the message board, why not ask for help? Is it really so far beneath you that because you can't figure something out you would rather trash than learn?

And lastly, SETI unresponsive to the complaints of its users? Which users and what complaints? Who should they listen to? Because every user seems to have their own ideas. Some, like you, want to get rid of BOINC, which just isn't possible. Some don't like the new screen saver. Some love the new screen saver. Some don't like the fact that SETI Enhanced takes so long, others like the fact that SETI is searching even harder into the data it has to accomplish its goal. So who do they listen to? Those that can't accept change and want things their way, or those who like the changes? Any which way you look at it, someone isn't going to be happy.

The best thing for SETI to do is to do what they feel is best for the project. Some users will complain and possibly leave. New users will join. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

Daily updates are kind of hard when there's 3 people who work for the project, and one of them (Matt, who usually gives the updates) is on vacation (which he's entitled to take).

I think your expectations are too high and I think you're afraid to learn something new. But that's just my $.02 like you gave yours.


Oh, and I love Vista. Its much more secure than XP, it runs smoother, has better features and looks sexier. Don't give me any of that "people want XP but Microsoft simply says 'no'". People had the same exact complaints about XP when it first came out, I remember because I liked XP at the time and had to hear all about how it was slower than Windows 98 (the previous popular MS OS) and how its interface looked like something from Teletubbies. People simply hate change, but the older software gets, the more expensive it costs to support. Its time for XP to go and I'm happy Vista is here.

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No more funding for seti ? I just saw a piece on TV about a VERY LARGE donation to SETI by one of the Microsoft guys whatshisname: Allen. They even built this huge new array which is supposed to dramatically increase the data to analyze. HUMMM $$$$ Plus the NSA won't let you guys tell us what your finding in the first place. . . yes I hear you have NSA is present 24/7. But thats a topic for another thread.

If Vista is so great why are people dumping PC's and switching to MAC in droves ? I have yet to meet anyone who likes Vista, with the exception of you. . .

BOINC . . . maybe people ONLY want to run SETI ? BTW that SETI screen saver was cooler in the 90's when it didn't swing back and forth making people sea sick. I understand you cannot make people happy but people should be able to choose what they like. SETI needs to start appealing to the masses
insted they drop the ball.

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Okay I'll ask for help....

BOINC is garbage, please fix it.

Thank you.

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No more funding for seti ? I just saw a piece on TV about a VERY LARGE donation to SETI by one of the Microsoft guys whatshisname: Allen. They even built this huge new array which is supposed to dramatically increase the data to analyze. HUMMM $$$$ Plus the NSA won't let you guys tell us what your finding in the first place. . . yes I hear you have NSA is present 24/7. But thats a topic for another thread.

That money goes to the SETI Institute which has no affiliation with SETI@Home. SETI@Home does not see a dime of that money. SETI@Home also does not use the Allen Telescope Array (ATA), so there will not be an increase in data to analyze.

Educating yourself on these matters first might help your case.

If Vista is so great why are people dumping PC's and switching to MAC in droves ? I have yet to meet anyone who likes Vista, with the exception of you. . .

You're around the wrong people. I wouldn't say people are switching to Macs in "droves", otherwise they'd no longer be such a minority in the marketplace. Sure, some people have switched, but not in large quantities as you've implied.

Its only the techy people who hate change and have reported to their non-techy friends to stay away from Vista that is all the clamoring you're hearing about. There's actually a large portion of IT types like myself who know about the inner workings of Vista and realize that it is more secure than XP and can't wait to deploy it.

BOINC . . . maybe people ONLY want to run SETI ? BTW that SETI screen saver was cooler in the 90's when it didn't swing back and forth making people sea sick. I understand you cannot make people happy but people should be able to choose what they like. SETI needs to start appealing to the masses
insted they drop the ball.

Then only attach to SETI through BOINC. That is the only way you can do it now because the dedicated servers for the old client to communicate with have been decommissioned.

But guess what - I'll agree with you in that they should offer a choice in the screen saver. They should offer the old "non-wobbly" one for people who prefer that one and they should offer the new "wobbly" one for those that are worried about screen burn.

But that takes time to code graphics, and the old graphics were not cross-platform, so each one had to be coded specifically for that platform. That means development time on a Mac, Linux PC, Windows PC, and any other supported OS. That requires money to buy each type of machine or OS so that the apps can properly be tested. That also requires man power and time (which equals money) to actually sit down and code. As I stated already, SETI is out of funding (again, they do not see a dime from the SETI Institute, SETI@Home is not affiliated with the SETI Institute). There are 3 full time employees who work at SETI@Home, and most of their time is used up writing grant proposals and giving speeches at the University, and giving in-lab tours to guests who frequently stop by for a story in a local paper, or to focus on other scientific aspects of SETI@Home. They have very little time to devote to coding for different platforms.

At least with the new screen saver, which is done in OpenGL, it is cross-platform (the same code can be used on all OSes) so they only have to write it once and test it once which saves tons of time on development.

I think SETI still appeals to the masses. There's just a small handful of people who were too used to the way the old software worked and they want something like that again, but its simply not possible. I'm sure if Eric could accommodate each and every volunteer (if he had the means to), I'm sure Eric would do it in a heartbeat. Its simply not possible to cater to the demands of every single user out there.

Okay I'll ask for help....

BOINC is garbage, please fix it.

Thank you.

OK. What is "garbage" about it? Please provide detail about specific bugs and I'll report them to ROM Walton to fix.

You can't make a generalized statement like that and expect to get a serious response. That's like saying "My car is garbage, fix it!". OK, what's wrong with it? What needs fixing? Maybe the car does need fixing, but you need to shed light on specific aspects, otherwise the 500,000 other active hosts on SETI@Home alone beg to differ. If 500,000 other hosts can get it running just fine, then it can't be that bad.

And that's not exactly "asking for help". That's a statement. Asking for help would be more specific like "I can't connect to a project, can you help me?" or "I can't figure out how to increase my WU cache, can you help me?". You're not actually asking for assistance, you're simply stating an opinion about the software that isn't backed by unbaised fact.

[

OK. What is "garbage" about it? Please provide detail about specific bugs and I'll report them to ROM Walton to fix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Okay. I have used BOINC successfully ( and hated it ) since its introduction. Another poster hit the nail on the head with one big problem. WE FREQUENTLY are unable to get or report work and looking in messages it will say something generic like " unable to connect to server ". Great. . . big help. Then I go to SETI's webpage and thats a waste of time because there are NO CURRENT UPDATES only a line or two from a problem LAST week. SOOOOO now I have to ask my self where the problem is, it is my router causing the problem ? My computer ? WHERE is the problem ?!?!? A 10 year old is able to update their myspace page a dozen times a day but SETI cannot find the 5 minutes to UPDATE the webpage DAILY ?
I am very familiar with writing and running a webpage ( I have a few). It only takes a few minutes. You guys just leave everyone hanging.

NEXT That SWINGING SETI graphic screen saver NEEDS TO STOP MOVING ! If you can just jazz up the screen saver into the year 2000 era it would make many people happy.

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NEXT That SWINGING SETI graphic screen saver NEEDS TO STOP MOVING ! If you can just jazz up the screen saver into the year 2000 era it would make many people happy.[/quote]

You can turn off the movement of the screen saver in the preferences page. Although, it wouldn't be a screen saver if it didn't move, but its your screen.

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Pixzy beat me to it. Carmine - most of us don't bother with the screensaver as we'd rather have the cpu cycles dedicated to crunching. With BOINC, you run the processes in the background and not via the screen saver. By browsing the forums, you can tell that there have been issues over the past few weeks. Matt has been on vacation this week so that has left 2 staff to address the problems. To me, it's more important to fix the issues instead of acknowledging that there is definitely a problem (and by the many posts we all know that is true). Run more than one project and your cpu will always be busy...

Peace...

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Wendy



Click Here for BOINC FAQ Service

In my house right now, I have my iMac running 10.5.4, a Dell 530s running Vista Home Premium and a Dell 6000 Laptop running Ubuntu. All 3 can connect to any of the others and share files.

My main computer is still the iMac as far as browsing and playing music go, the 530s is the gaming machine and the laptop is just for traveling.

I decided that the laptop did not need to crunch anything because it was getting too hot and was not as efficient at the other 2.

I have taught myself all 3 OS's with help from the online community and can troubleshoot most problems with minimal help now.

BOINC is designed to run on a lot of different hardware combination's and OS's, so it cannot be rewritten for a select few because it is too difficult to run. Considering what it started with, it has advanced a very long way toward ease of use.

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OK. What is "garbage" about it? Please provide detail about specific bugs and I'll report them to ROM Walton to fix.

Okay. I have used BOINC successfully ( and hated it ) since its introduction. Another poster hit the nail on the head with one big problem. WE FREQUENTLY are unable to get or report work and looking in messages it will say something generic like " unable to connect to server ". Great. . . big help. Then I go to SETI's webpage and thats a waste of time because there are NO CURRENT UPDATES only a line or two from a problem LAST week. SOOOOO now I have to ask my self where the problem is, it is my router causing the problem ? My computer ? WHERE is the problem ?!?!?

None of that has anything to do with BOINC itself.

The SETI@Home servers were down and your BOINC Client was telling you that it couldn't connect. I've seen the messages myself, and they read:

8/12/2008 1:49:46 PM||Project communication failed: attempting access to reference site

and then:

8/12/2008 1:49:47 PM||Access to reference site succeeded - project servers may be temporarily down.

That tells you that it isn't your client. You then have the option of coming to the message boards and seeing that everyone else is posting messages stating that they can't connect. Through deduction, you can see that it isn't your system.

But, lets say for the sake of argument that SETI got rid of BOINC. You run a stand alone SETI client and that client tries to connect to the SETI servers, but the servers are down, so the client tells you those same messages quoted above. The end result is the same. When the old SETI Client couldn't connect to the server, it gave an error like "System connect error". And that was somehow more helpful than BOINC? People seem to have short memories as to how poorly designed SETI Classic actually was. Can you determine if "System connect error" is your router, your PC or the SETI servers? I can't. At least BOINC tells you "Project servers may be temporarily down", so why would you start checking your router or PC? It has already told you what the problem is.

The point I'm making is that you "hate" BOINC because of something that is not BOINC's fault, and wouldn't be different without BOINC. SETI@Home Classic had literally weeks of downtime without much communication on the website. So, how was that better than what we have now?

At least with BOINC, if you actually choose to join another project who's server isn't down will actually fill your computer time with other work to do until SETI's servers come back up. There's a sort of fault-tolerance there to help keep your systems busy. But if you don't want to join another project, then you need to accept that SETI's servers will have problems and you'll be unable to connect - and all this has nothing to do with BOINC itself.

A 10 year old is able to update their myspace page a dozen times a day but SETI cannot find the 5 minutes to UPDATE the webpage DAILY ?
I am very familiar with writing and running a webpage ( I have a few). It only takes a few minutes. You guys just leave everyone hanging.

So you're comparing running SETI with 3 people to a 10 year old on MySpace?

Do you have any idea how busy Eric, Matt and Jeff are in the lab?

But even so. Again, for the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you and that more communication should be put on the front page (and I actually do agree with you), I've seen them do it before and no one reads the front page. We still have dozens of people come in and complain on the boards about not being able to connect. At least some 10 year olds on MySpace can read.

But even if they did update the front page more often, what does that have to do with BOINC? BOINC is nothing more than a framework. Its a middleman. So I'm afraid that you still haven't given me anything to report to David to fix in BOINC.

NEXT That SWINGING SETI graphic screen saver NEEDS TO STOP MOVING ! If you can just jazz up the screen saver into the year 2000 era it would make many people happy.

Some people don't want it to stop moving, because a static image causes screen burn. Personally, I love the SETI screen saver and I think it looks nice. It could use a little less wobble, but as has been stated, that can be adjusted via your preferences.

No, I am not comparing running SETI like myspace. BUT putting up a line of text PER day IS AS EASY AS A 10 YEAR OLD UPDATING HIS MYSPACE PAGE ! IT TAKES 5 MIN. Why cant we be kept updated on server status so we don't spend hours trouble shooting our computers when thats not the problem ?

BTW: Screen savers are totally obsolete in the first place when talking about screen burn, that has not been an issue in 10 years. The old graphics WERE cool to look at for no other reason. It was FUN to watch, now I want to throw up at the swinging graphic. Why not an option to keep it steady for those like me who don't want to get sea sick ?

Also, sometimes the error message is NOT servers may be temporarily down. Sometimes it says Cannot connect to server.

***********************
quote]

OK. What is "garbage" about it? Please provide detail about specific bugs and I'll report them to ROM Walton to fix.

Okay. I have used BOINC successfully ( and hated it ) since its introduction. Another poster hit the nail on the head with one big problem. WE FREQUENTLY are unable to get or report work and looking in messages it will say something generic like " unable to connect to server ". Great. . . big help. Then I go to SETI's webpage and thats a waste of time because there are NO CURRENT UPDATES only a line or two from a problem LAST week. SOOOOO now I have to ask my self where the problem is, it is my router causing the problem ? My computer ? WHERE is the problem ?!?!?

None of that has anything to do with BOINC itself.

The SETI@Home servers were down and your BOINC Client was telling you that it couldn't connect. I've seen the messages myself, and they read:

8/12/2008 1:49:46 PM||Project communication failed: attempting access to reference site

and then:

8/12/2008 1:49:47 PM||Access to reference site succeeded - project servers may be temporarily down.

That tells you that it isn't your client. You then have the option of coming to the message boards and seeing that everyone else is posting messages stating that they can't connect. Through deduction, you can see that it isn't your system.

But, lets say for the sake of argument that SETI got rid of BOINC. You run a stand alone SETI client and that client tries to connect to the SETI servers, but the servers are down, so the client tells you those same messages quoted above. The end result is the same. When the old SETI Client couldn't connect to the server, it gave an error like "System connect error". And that was somehow more helpful than BOINC? People seem to have short memories as to how poorly designed SETI Classic actually was. Can you determine if "System connect error" is your router, your PC or the SETI servers? I can't. At least BOINC tells you "Project servers may be temporarily down", so why would you start checking your router or PC? It has already told you what the problem is.

The point I'm making is that you "hate" BOINC because of something that is not BOINC's fault, and wouldn't be different without BOINC. SETI@Home Classic had literally weeks of downtime without much communication on the website. So, how was that better than what we have now?

At least with BOINC, if you actually choose to join another project who's server isn't down will actually fill your computer time with other work to do until SETI's servers come back up. There's a sort of fault-tolerance there to help keep your systems busy. But if you don't want to join another project, then you need to accept that SETI's servers will have problems and you'll be unable to connect - and all this has nothing to do with BOINC itself.

A 10 year old is able to update their myspace page a dozen times a day but SETI cannot find the 5 minutes to UPDATE the webpage DAILY ?
I am very familiar with writing and running a webpage ( I have a few). It only takes a few minutes. You guys just leave everyone hanging.

So you're comparing running SETI with 3 people to a 10 year old on MySpace?

Do you have any idea how busy Eric, Matt and Jeff are in the lab?

But even so. Again, for the sake of argument, let's say I agree with you and that more communication should be put on the front page (and I actually do agree with you), I've seen them do it before and no one reads the front page. We still have dozens of people come in and complain on the boards about not being able to connect. At least some 10 year olds on MySpace can read.

But even if they did update the front page more often, what does that have to do with BOINC? BOINC is nothing more than a framework. Its a middleman. So I'm afraid that you still haven't given me anything to report to David to fix in BOINC.

NEXT That SWINGING SETI graphic screen saver NEEDS TO STOP MOVING ! If you can just jazz up the screen saver into the year 2000 era it would make many people happy.

Some people don't want it to stop moving, because a static image causes screen burn. Personally, I love the SETI screen saver and I think it looks nice. It could use a little less wobble, but as has been stated, that can be adjusted via your preferences.[/quote]

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Okay I'll ask for help....

BOINC is garbage, please fix it.

Thank you.

You would do well in the political forums, methinks... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .