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Message 754816 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 1:23:47 UTC

The Vista desktop looks pretty slick with the Leopard server wallpaper...

I'd post a screenshot, but I seem to have misplaced my keyboards print screen button... ;)

(I'm still flustered when I hit the apple-c and apple-v key combo and nothing happens. But amazed that the apple key is now the windows key)
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Message 754870 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 4:14:13 UTC

I don't like the built-in DRM...

This is from early in the thread but this is one of the major reasons why I am trying my hardest to not touch vista with a 10 foot pole. MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels in an attempt to make bits uncopyable. And it doesn't work anyway - go check thepiratebay.

Want to play a blu-ray DVD in your vista machine using your S/PDIF audio hookup? Good luck. It turns S/PDIF off for "premium content" because it isn't encrypted. Why? Its my DVD and my audio system, I should be able to use it how I see fit. I am not willing to accept MS's artificial restrictions so I use Linux for everything I can, which is just about everything these days. I even have plenty of eye candy if I want it. Compiz works pretty well on the newest release of Ubuntu. Hardware accelerated window animations, transparency, etc. Its all there, except without Big Brother telling me how to use it.
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Message 754895 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 5:03:03 UTC - in response to Message 754870.  

MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels

I'm still trying to figure out how to delete these files... ;)

(Although I'll admit, it isn't a high priority on my to-do list)
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Message 754987 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 8:08:16 UTC - in response to Message 754870.  

I don't like the built-in DRM...

This is from early in the thread but this is one of the major reasons why I am trying my hardest to not touch vista with a 10 foot pole. MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels in an attempt to make bits uncopyable. And it doesn't work anyway - go check thepiratebay.

Want to play a blu-ray DVD in your vista machine using your S/PDIF audio hookup? Good luck. It turns S/PDIF off for "premium content" because it isn't encrypted. Why? Its my DVD and my audio system, I should be able to use it how I see fit. I am not willing to accept MS's artificial restrictions so I use Linux for everything I can, which is just about everything these days. I even have plenty of eye candy if I want it. Compiz works pretty well on the newest release of Ubuntu. Hardware accelerated window animations, transparency, etc. Its all there, except without Big Brother telling me how to use it.


I do it toby.



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Message 755137 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 15:49:53 UTC - in response to Message 754895.  

MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels

Isn't that called "proprietary lock-in" so that you become more profitable for the proprietary bit?...

Shame about the associated restrictions and wasted expense...

:-(

Happy crunchin',
Martin

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Message 755139 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 15:50:37 UTC - in response to Message 755137.  
Last modified: 18 May 2008, 15:50:57 UTC

MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels

Isn't that called "proprietary lock-in" so that you become more profitable for the proprietary bit?...

Shame about the associated restrictions and wasted expense...

:-(

Happy crunchin',
Martin

Not to mention the wasted computer resources..........
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Message 755154 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 16:12:49 UTC - in response to Message 755139.  

MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels

Isn't that called "proprietary lock-in" so that you become more profitable for the proprietary bit?...

Shame about the associated restrictions and wasted expense...

:-(

Happy crunchin',
Martin

Not to mention the wasted computer resources..........


That's the one 'feature' in Vista that I don't like: DRM. The plus side for me is that I don't use Blue Ray or HD-DVD on my PC, so I don't really care much.
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Message 755172 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 16:42:49 UTC - in response to Message 755154.  
Last modified: 18 May 2008, 16:43:17 UTC

MS is essentially assuming every user is a criminal and locking things down to insane levels

Isn't that called "proprietary lock-in" so that you become more profitable for the proprietary bit?...

Shame about the associated restrictions and wasted expense...

:-(

Happy crunchin',
Martin

Not to mention the wasted computer resources..........


That's the one 'feature' in Vista that I don't like: DRM. The plus side for me is that I don't use Blue Ray or HD-DVD on my PC, so I don't really care much.


Only to make it clear.
The DRM feature has nothing to do with HD DVD or Blu-ray.
Its included in the HD or BD hardware and graphics card and monitor.
It has nothing to do with vista.
Those combinations wouldn´t also work with XP.


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Message 755252 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 18:55:36 UTC - in response to Message 755172.  

Only to make it clear.
The DRM feature has nothing to do with HD DVD or Blu-ray.
Its included in the HD or BD hardware and graphics card and monitor.
It has nothing to do with vista.
Those combinations wouldn´t also work with XP.


That isn't entirely correct. Vista does have DRM built-in, and it does ensure a secure path through the system so that finding a weak point during playback would be nearly impossible.

The reason why the hardware has a problem on XP too is that most every manufacturer out there has been bullied by the MPAA/RIAA to reduce piracy by preventing the next generation of audio/video from having any un-secure means of playback. The device is supposed to become inoperable if it cannot find a secure "path" or "channel" for playback.

The idea is that the entire stream, from reading it off the source disk, through whatever circuits (either in a stand-alone device or in a computer), and finally out to the display device (and including the display device), all must be encrypted digitally to prevent copying/hacking.

Microsoft's part in this (and OS X will be getting this "feature" too) is that the OS must ensure that no software attempts to hack into this secure stream of data. Any software or hardware that is found to do so will have their Microsoft Digital Signature Certificate revoked and the software/device will no longer function in the system. This is another reason why Microsoft is pushing their software certificates on manufacturers (the other reason is a good one: Microsoft can ensure the software/device is properly written to conform to standards so that the system doesn't crash frequently - something Microsoft wanted to do long ago but was afraid of manufacturer/consumer backlash).

So far though, it appears that Blue Ray and HD-DVD have been cracked in software and without Microsoft's digital signature certificate. I'm not sure of the details, but I know of the software that does it.
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Message 755370 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 21:59:20 UTC - in response to Message 755252.  
Last modified: 18 May 2008, 22:00:32 UTC

... will have their Microsoft Digital Signature Certificate revoked and the software/device will no longer function in the system. This is another reason why Microsoft is pushing their software certificates on manufacturers (the other reason is a good one: Microsoft can ensure the software/device is properly written to conform to standards so that the system doesn't crash frequently - something Microsoft wanted to do long ago but was afraid of manufacturer/consumer backlash). ...

That also means that Microsoft can gain a very high profit from handing out their enabling certificates. The hardware manufacturers must pay their tithe and then someone else has to pay them...

It also means that Microsoft can effectively disable your own (expensive) hardware to become just a useless pile of scrap.

The question is whether they will go far enough to use their "trusted computing" trick to stop any other software from making use of your perfectly good hardware.

:-(

Happy crunchin',
Martin
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Message 755378 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 22:07:29 UTC - in response to Message 755370.  
Last modified: 18 May 2008, 22:08:29 UTC



It also means that Microsoft can effectively disable your own (expensive) hardware to become just a useless pile of scrap.

The question is whether they will go far enough to use their "trusted computing" trick to stop any other software from making use of your perfectly good hardware.

:-(

Happy crunchin',
Martin

I have never run anything other than MS Windows........NT4.0, 2000, XP, XPx64, and 2000 advanced server......

But having said that, I do not wish to be a beta tester for Vista.......
Maybe if it matures by the time XP is sunsetted.........

Or maybe I will just get tee'd off enough by that time to uncurl Mr. Gates' fingers offa MY dang hardware and learn Linux.......
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Message 755390 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 22:19:37 UTC - in response to Message 755252.  

Microsoft's part in this (and OS X will be getting this "feature" too)

Please stop frightening me! ;)
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Message 755396 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 22:29:02 UTC

I find it funny that back in 2001 or 2002 Microsoft first announced their "Palladium" platform. "Palladium is a system that combines software and hardware controls to create a 'trusted' computing platform."

Everyone got upset about it because of privacy concerns and "lock-in" and other things. I think there were even lawsuits. Then suddenly Microsoft stopped talking about it and it seemed to go away. Fast forward a few years and we now have a lot of the elements of Palldium sitting right there in Vista except it was done silently without MS trying to hype the platform by name to the public. They just kind of stuffed it in and said "oh yeah... thats... um... security stuff"
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Message 755400 - Posted: 18 May 2008, 22:47:57 UTC - in response to Message 755396.  
Last modified: 18 May 2008, 22:50:23 UTC

I find it funny that

. . . the more 'open source' an operating system is, the more SECURE AND FREE it is... ;)

(Maybe it's time we all take a brief moment to reflect on my sig)
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Message 755581 - Posted: 19 May 2008, 13:49:39 UTC - in response to Message 755370.  

It also means that Microsoft can effectively disable your own (expensive) hardware to become just a useless pile of scrap.

The question is whether they will go far enough to use their "trusted computing" trick to stop any other software from making use of your perfectly good hardware.


Figures you would focus on the Microsoft part. The other part is manufacturers have to comply as well. This isn't exactly Microsoft forcing their will onto the community, or willfully trying to ruin their customer's computers into paper weights.
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Message 755585 - Posted: 19 May 2008, 14:04:20 UTC - in response to Message 755396.  

I find it funny that back in 2001 or 2002 Microsoft first announced their "Palladium" platform. "Palladium is a system that combines software and hardware controls to create a 'trusted' computing platform."

Everyone got upset about it because of privacy concerns and "lock-in" and other things. I think there were even lawsuits. Then suddenly Microsoft stopped talking about it and it seemed to go away. Fast forward a few years and we now have a lot of the elements of Palldium sitting right there in Vista except it was done silently without MS trying to hype the platform by name to the public. They just kind of stuffed it in and said "oh yeah... thats... um... security stuff"


Simply senseless if the mobo bios dont activate the fritz chip etc.
Why do you think microsoft deactivated all these "features" in vista.

So far i´m concerned there are several hacks on the air against palladium.




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Message 756190 - Posted: 20 May 2008, 22:30:21 UTC - in response to Message 755581.  
Last modified: 20 May 2008, 22:36:11 UTC

Figures you would focus on the Microsoft part. The other part is manufacturers have to comply as well. This isn't exactly Microsoft forcing their will onto the community, or willfully trying to ruin their customer's computers into paper weights.

The question is more whether Microsoft has a strong enough (effective monopoly) to 'persuade' the manufacturers to go to the extra expense of the extra hardware and the enforced Microsoft 'certification'.

Perhaps Microsoft is trying to push into controlling something similar to Apple's business model?...


The whole push for 'trusted computing' is merely a euphemism to permit media providers to enforce charging a 'pay-per-view' system on your own hardware. The problem there is then that everyone pays extra for the extra hardware and for the extra-elaborate drivers whether you want the 'pay-per-view' or not...


It's all a question of whether you have less choice or any choice at all...


Note that the 'open' nature of PC platforms has been phenomenally successful for everyone, thus far.

Regards,
Martin

Aside: Note that Microsoft just happen to be the 'leader' in this game at the moment.

Usual disclaimers apply of "it's all just my own personal opinion" etc...
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Message 756197 - Posted: 20 May 2008, 22:38:21 UTC - in response to Message 756190.  

The question is more whether Microsoft has a strong enough (effective monopoly) to 'persuade' the manufacturers to go to the extra expense of the extra hardware and the enforced Microsoft 'certification'.

Perhaps Microsoft is trying to push into controlling something similar to Apple's business model?...


The whole push for 'trusted computing' is merely a euphemism to permit media providers to enforce charging a 'pay-per-view' system on your own hardware. The problem there is then that everyone pays extra for the extra hardware and for the extra-elaborate drivers whether you want the 'pay-per-view' or not...


It's all a question of whether you have less choice or any choice at all...


Note that the 'open' nature of PC platforms has been phenomenally successful so far for everyone.


I agree with the anti-DRM sentiments in your post. But it's unfortunate that Microsoft was first to the table with this "technology" built into their OS. Perhaps Apple purposely held off to see how it went for MS (thus saving their own face).
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Message 756369 - Posted: 21 May 2008, 11:50:49 UTC

There is one Major problem with DRM. Copyright Laws. I have over 7tb of music/films which are legitimate as I own original copies & wished to have access to them anywhere in the house.

The problem is that legally, I have committed a criminal offence by copying them to my computers.

Based on this, WHY is the IT world still working towards a one box scenario for everything? I.E., TV/Cinema/Phone/Net etc.

When I originally installed Vista on my rig, it messed up all 13,000 music tracks, but fortunately, I had them backed up.

Now, when running Vista, I make sure that my main HD's are switched off (BP1&3).

My personal view is that O/S's should not have DRM - If it has to be, then it should be down to the device manufacturers/Software Houses.
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Message 756428 - Posted: 21 May 2008, 15:45:36 UTC - in response to Message 756369.  
Last modified: 21 May 2008, 15:46:05 UTC

Based on this, WHY is the IT world still working towards a one box scenario for everything? I.E., TV/Cinema/Phone/Net etc.


I believe the reason is in hopes to simplify everything for the 'average' user and to save space. Not everyone wants to have 6 different devices when you can reduce it to 2 or 3 powerful ones that can do everything.

When I originally installed Vista on my rig, it messed up all 13,000 music tracks, but fortunately, I had them backed up.


That's interesting to know. Its a good thing I have all my music and movies on a file server (and backed up too).

My personal view is that O/S's should not have DRM - If it has to be, then it should be down to the device manufacturers/Software Houses.


I agree with you and ML1 here. As I said previously, DRM is the one feature of Vista that I really don't like - but it doesn't effect me as I don't have anything copy protected or in high def (yet). Maybe some people can complain loud enough for the EFF to do something about it, but I seriously doubt it as the MPAA and RIAA seem to be in bed with Uncle Sam [edit] and trying to get in bed with every other government as well.
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