. . . for all the '(self-)righteous' BIG BROTHERS out there...

If you cut a man off from society, lock him in a room, and proceed to torture him day and night... Even if you 'believe' that you are 'doing the right thing'... When he finally gives up and commits some sort of personal suicide, who exactly do you think God will punish? Who do you think is guilty of the greater crime(s)?

This aught to be interesting... ;)

(Inspired by Matthew 7:1-5)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

No one. There is no god.

Those who hide behind good intentions and persecute others commit the greater crime.

No one. There is no god.

Even though you don't believe in any god, take it as a hypothetical question, as in "What if..."

And because Jeffrey's starting post stated:

(Inspired by Matthew 7:1-5)

Here is the text which inspired him:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Source: BibleGateway (link)

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Account frozen...

. . . for all the '(self-)righteous' BIG BROTHERS out there...

If you cut a man off from society, lock him in a room, and proceed to torture him day and night... Even if you 'believe' that you are 'doing the right thing'... When he finally gives up and commits some sort of personal suicide, who exactly do you think God will punish? Who do you think is guilty of the greater crime(s)?

This ought to be interesting... ;)

(Inspired by Matthew 7:1-5)

There at least two historically documented examples similar to what you have suggested (though without the torture) where people have taken children, locked them away and removed all verbal stimuli.

They did this to find out what language the children would speak first.

They had the belief that their language (English, French, Spanish whatever) was the language of God and any child devoid of external infleunce would obviously speak in Gods language first...

As far as I can remember all the children in these hideous experiments never spoke a word, they became mentally disturbed and died at an early age.

The children simply gave up living.


I have no idea who god will punish.


I know who I would incarcerate though... and it would not be the children.


I am unsure why we would need to try to balance one action against another.

Sometimes one is wrong and the other is right and sometimes both are wrong or both are right. Sometime both are not really connected.

The bible (Quran and other religious books) say it is wrong or evil to commit suicide.

The same books say it is wrong to harm others.

What God judges will always be hypothetical except to those who think they know the truth...


Perhaps a more interesting set of questions (because 1 in 4 of us will know someone in this situation at least once in our lives) are:

• What about people who suffer great pain and are on a fast track to death?
  
  
• What if they were in the last stages of an illness like cancer and were suffering?
  
  
• What if they would live for another year in agony or could ask for a high dose of morphine that would let them slip away in the next few days without too much pain?
  

I've never seen a suicide where a person did not see it as their only option.


I hate the idea of suicide but then I am not at that point.

Do I need an e'dict from God to stop me from committing suicide.. No.

If God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with then no one should have ever committed suicide.

If God knows us well then why would he allow us to suffer to the point of self termination?


Maybe suicide only happens when God stops caring for us...

.. OR maybe it happens when we can not cope with ourselves or our life any more.


No shame in making choices that effect ourselves..

Convict the criminal.

Support the victim.



God can punish us for disagreeing with him....
He can punish us when we are dead...
How frightening is that? ;o)~


.

No one. There is no god.

Even though you don't believe in any god, take it as a hypothetical question, as in "What if..."

And because Jeffrey's starting post stated:

(Inspired by Matthew 7:1-5)

Here is the text which inspired him:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Source: BibleGateway (link)

Well if the hypothetical question is "If there were a God would it punish the person who committed suicide, or the person who set up the conditions that drove the former to suicide", my answer would be that it depends on the God in question. As I understand if the Christian one is meant to be a loving and forgiving God, so I imagine neither, other Gods appear to see humanity as sport (I'm thinking Ancient Greek) and I wouldn't be surprised if they rewarded both captor and captive with a spot in the Elysian Fields.

But to be fair Angus had it right, the question is nonsense as it's extremely unlikely there is a God, and if there were a Creator of the Universe, then it's just as unlikely that it would care (if it had analogous emotions) what a few atoms did to another few atoms. The more important question is how do we deal with such circumstances, not some arbitrary construct created by our ancestors.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with

Gods grace gives us the ability to cope, even unto death...
There is a difference between suicide and martyrdom...
Suicide is taking the easy way out...
Martyrdom is dying for what you believe in...

God can punish us for disagreeing with him....
He can punish us when we are dead...
How frightening is that?

That would all depend on how much you disagree with Him... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

My choice would be to punish the torturers. I have no idea what God would do (if there is a God).

---

BOINC WIKI

God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with

Gods grace gives us the ability to cope, even unto death...
There is a difference between suicide and martyrdom...
Suicide is taking the easy way out...
Martyrdom is dying for what you believe in...

Hmmm.. im not sure martyrdom is such a great thing. How can I be able to
fight for a course when i am dead? :-) I would prefer to stay alive
as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

When it comes to suicide, I think we shall be very careful with judgements, and
more conserned about avoid them.

---

God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with

Gods grace gives us the ability to cope, even unto death...
There is a difference between suicide and martyrdom...
Suicide is taking the easy way out...
Martyrdom is dying for what you believe in...

Hmmm.. im not sure martyrdom is such a great thing. How can I be able to
fight for a course when i am dead? :-) I would prefer to stay alive
as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

When it comes to suicide, I think we shall be very careful with judgements, and
more conserned about avoid them.

And be very careful when you discuss suicide..........it is a tender subject for many......more have chosen that route than you would believe......my younger brother did, and it haunts me still.............

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with

Gods grace gives us the ability to cope, even unto death...
There is a difference between suicide and martyrdom...
Suicide is taking the easy way out...
Martyrdom is dying for what you believe in...

Hmmm.. im not sure martyrdom is such a great thing. How can I be able to
fight for a course when i am dead? :-) I would prefer to stay alive
as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

When it comes to suicide, I think we shall be very careful with judgements, and
more conserned about avoid them.

And be very careful when you discuss suicide..........it is a tender subject for many......more have chosen that route than you would believe......my younger brother did, and it haunts me still.............

I for one, have chosen to stay here and fight it out to the death of me......
and search the heavens for some more answers......

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I would prefer to stay alive as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

Maybe I wasn't clear enough:

Suicide is when you take your own life...
Martyrdom is when other people take your life...

Of course, there are 'suicide martyrs' too... Which are nothing more than 'overzealous patriots'... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I would prefer to stay alive as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

Maybe I wasn't clear enough:

Suicide is when you take your own life...
Martyrdom is when other people take your life...

Of course, there are 'suicide martyrs' too... Which are nothing more than 'overzealous patriots'... ;)

I think you were clear enough.....thank you........

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with

Gods grace gives us the ability to cope, even unto death...
There is a difference between suicide and martyrdom...
Suicide is taking the easy way out...
Martyrdom is dying for what you believe in...

Hmmm.. im not sure martyrdom is such a great thing. How can I be able to
fight for a course when i am dead? :-) I would prefer to stay alive
as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

When it comes to suicide, I think we shall be very careful with judgements, and
more conserned about avoid them.

And be very careful when you discuss suicide..........it is a tender subject for many......more have chosen that route than you would believe......my younger brother did, and it haunts me still.............

Im sorry to hear that. with respect.

---

sometimes i feel like a hypothetical question myself ;-)

---

I would prefer to stay alive as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

Maybe I wasn't clear enough:

Suicide is when you take your own life...
Martyrdom is when other people take your life...

Of course, there are 'suicide martyrs' too... Which are nothing more than 'overzealous patriots'... ;)

Nice spin.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

God only allows us to suffer what we are capable of coping with

Gods grace gives us the ability to cope, even unto death...
There is a difference between suicide and martyrdom...
Suicide is taking the easy way out...
Martyrdom is dying for what you believe in...

Hmmm.. im not sure martyrdom is such a great thing. How can I be able to
fight for a course when i am dead? :-) I would prefer to stay alive
as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

When it comes to suicide, I think we shall be very careful with judgements, and
more conserned about avoid them.

And be very careful when you discuss suicide..........it is a tender subject for many......more have chosen that route than you would believe......my younger brother did, and it haunts me still.............

Im sorry to hear that. with respect.

Thank you......it was more than 30 years ago......and sometimes when I get in the depths of my thoughts, it is still hard to come to grips with......
But being a bit manic depressive myself, I have to fight to keep hold of a positive attitude from time to time.......
Today is a good day.....the sun is shining brightly.....the kitties have showered me with affection.....and I have my friends here at Seti.
Life is indeed good.

---

"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

I would prefer to stay alive as long as possible at least. Not die to "make a statement".

Maybe I wasn't clear enough:

Suicide is when you take your own life...
Martyrdom is when other people take your life...

Of course, there are 'suicide martyrs' too... Which are nothing more than 'overzealous patriots'... ;)

During WW2 agents were often given suicide capsules (cyanide etc..) in case they were caught.

Some of those agents went out to destroy the Nazi factories producing materials that could have been used to make nuclear weapons.

I assume they were given the suicide drugs not only to ensure that they had a faster (easier?) option of death than torture but also so that they would not be tortured into giving up information.

Those who did kill themselves were essentially 'suicide martyrs'...

Obviously in todays political climate we tend to associate "suicide martyrs" with suicide bombers...

Suicide is taking the easy way out...

Sometimes suicide can make inevitable death easier but most suicides are committed outside of your or my value system.

I couldn't even start to imagine what people are going through when they decide to kill themselves except to say that I would not want to kill myself.

... but then I am not at the end of my tether in this life.

msattler is right that it is a sensitive issue. Death of anyone we care for is a painful thing but social, religious, political and personal values often make dealing with suicide a far more difficult thing.

It's made even more difficult because those people around the person who committed suicide are often left wondering if they could have done more.


Not everyone is capable of withstanding 'everything' life throws at them.

We should just be glad that our lives have not been so difficult.

We are not gods.

We are just precious.

... but so are those few who commit suicide.




.

. . . for all the '(self-)righteous' nosey people out there...


If you pry into someones personal life, and find something that may be displeasing to you and others but not necessarily illegal or sinful, and you make a big stink about it... When that persons life is destroyed, who exactly do you think God will punish? Who do you think is guilty of the greater crime(s)?

This aught to be interesting too... ;)



(Inspired by NOSEY PEOPLE, because they really irk me)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

. . . for all the '(self-)righteous' nosey people out there...


If you pry into someones personal life, and find something that may be displeasing to you and others but not necessarily illegal or sinful, and you make a big stink about it... When that persons life is destroyed, who exactly do you think God will punish? Who do you think is guilty of the greater crime(s)?

This aught to be interesting too... ;)



(Inspired by NOSEY PEOPLE, because they really irk me)

I am a private person by nature......I hang out with kitties because they understand me..........who shall judge?.......surely not you and I...........

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster