What about the civilians in the Middle East?

What about them?
1. They are the enemy

I thought the 'terrorists' were your enemy... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

A lot of dead US soldiers as well.........

Sadly yes, a lot of fine American men and women in the armed forces have been killed as part of this ill advised venture in destruction capitalism.

These aren't street corner punks that join the services, but some of the best young people America has.

For what?

To soldiers, it's honour, country and duty.

For those profiting from war it's money and power.

Rumsfeld Rice Cheney and Bush make me puke.

The soldier doesn't have the luxury of being able to debate the rights and wrongs of foreign policy as we can here, they go where and when they are ordered.
It is their duty and they will fulfill that obligation.

It is our duty and obligation to ensure that they are not used recklessly in some insane corporate drive to profit from war and destruction.
When soldiers are sent into harms way our elected leaders better have good reasons.
If not, we must hold our leaders responsible and accountable when they have made the wrong decision.

Here are 2 interesting and informative interviews with the author Chalmers Johnson. They are an hour long each.

The Blowback Syndrome: Oil Wars and Overreach 1/2

Decline of Empires: The Signs of Decay 2/2

Thank you Franz, that was facinating and frightening.
I just finished the two pieces and so many of the issues many of us have spoken about were covered so very well by Johnson.

I haven't come across this man before, but you can have no doubt that I'll be looking for his books.

Personally, I feel vindicated by the two pieces you posted.
Thank you again.

I'd also like to challenge the mouth breathers to watch this.

There are no car chases or shootouts, nothing gets blowed up and there's no T&A in it.

All you get is two hours of discourse from an intelligent and wise man who has grave and very real concerns for and about America.

What a coincidence, everyone there isn't a target either. Can the same be said for the occupants of the World Trade Center on 911?

Tell me again how many Iraqis were involved in the Sept 11 attack?

There were 19 hijackers in that attack and NOT ONE was Iraqi.

Not one German soldier participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor either. That's why wars, like the War on Terror, or WW2 instance, generally consists of many battles in many different locations. You might even recall that we invaded Afghanistan first...

Here's their faces, names and countries they came from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizers_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

That's really nice, but unlike you, I'm not an enemy sympathizer.
[/quote]
How many Saudis do you count in this bunch? I see 15 of 19.
What was the main demand of Bin Laden? American troops out of Saudi Arabia.
Can you put one and one together?
[/quote]
His demands became quite irrelevant when you murdered thousands of American citizens on 911. Everyone here is capable of addition, but you and a VERY few others seem to be having difficulty understand the problem.

Bin Laden got what he wanted and Bush got what he wanted.

In the middle are a lot of dead Iraqis.

If you think anyone outside of the muslim extremist WANTED war, then you are a pathetic excuse for for life

On the sidelines are cheerleaders like you praising your man of action president.

For decency's sake, open your eyes. Stop being such a meat stick.

And I'll praise any man who stands up for what right, be it an attempt at ending terrorism or shining the light of truth on your propaganda.

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A lot of dead US soldiers as well.........

Sadly yes, a lot of fine American men and women in the armed forces have been killed as part of this ill advised venture in destruction capitalism.

These aren't street corner punks that join the services, but some of the best young people America has.

For what?

To soldiers, it's honour, country and duty.

For those profiting from war it's money and power.

Rumsfeld Rice Cheney and Bush make me puke.

Well you could always join forces with your hero and fight the good fight by strapping a bomb to your chest and walking into a a corner cafe.

The soldier doesn't have the luxury of being able to debate the rights and wrongs of foreign policy as we can here, they go where and when they are ordered.

But they DO have the option to not join the military which proves inconclusively that thousand upon thousand of Americans disagree with you.[/quote]

It is their duty and they will fulfill that obligation.

You confuse duty with desire

It is our duty and obligation to ensure that they are not used recklessly in some insane corporate drive to profit from war and destruction.

I have no duty or obligation where the military is concerned. However, the Command in Chief DOES have a duty to protect the lives of American citizens and you don't win wars by simply defending yourself. Aggression IS a requirement.

When soldiers are sent into harms way our elected leaders better have good reasons.
If not, we must hold our leaders responsible and accountable when they have made the wrong decision.

You're not holding your leaders responsible for their continued actions in Afghanistan. If you were, WE wouldn't be at odds with each other

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I'd also like to challenge the mouth breathers to watch this.

There are no car chases or shootouts, nothing gets blowed up and there's no T&A in it.

All you get is two hours of discourse from an intelligent and wise man who has grave and very real concerns for and about America.

Sorry, don't care what a political science teacher, or an actor, or a musician feels about our foreign policy. Unlike you, I am capable of making my own opinions and providing links which support MY opinion.

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American citizens on 911.

Can we play a different card... This one is seven years old now... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Here is a classical Freidmanite (neo-con) disaster in the making.

How can a country rich in resources and natural gas screw-up???? The mention of the World Bank and IMF in the first paragraph and the second paragraph in the cut and paste below are a dead give away.

Any bets as to how long it will be before Tanzania ends up in total chaos like Kenya next door.

Bush Touting U.S. Aid in Tanzania By BEN FELLER

Tanzanian Economy (you need to scroll down)
The economy is heavily dependent on agriculture, which accounts for half of GDP, provides 85% of exports, and employs 80% of the workforce. Topography and climatic conditions, however, limit cultivated crops to only 4% of the land area. Industry is mainly limited to processing agricultural products and light consumer goods. The World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and bilateral donors have provided funds to rehabilitate Tanzania's deteriorated economic infrastructure. Tanzania has vast amounts of natural resources including gold deposits (such as that at Tulawaka have reserves of over 500,000 ounces of gold, at a grade of 12.2 grams per tonne). It also has beautiful national parks that remain undeveloped. Growth from 1991 to 1999 featured a pickup in industrial production and a substantial increase in output of minerals, led by gold. Commercial production of natural gas from the Songo Songo island in the Indian Ocean off the Rufiji Delta commenced 2004, with natural gas being pumped in a pipeline to the commercial capital Dar es Salaam, with the bulk of it being converted to electricity by the public utility and private operators. A new gas field is being brought on stream in Mnazi Bay.

Recent public sector and banking reforms, and revamped and new legislative frameworks have all helped increase private sector growth and investment. Short-term economic progress also depends on curbing corruption and cutting back on unnecessary public spending.

Prolonged drought during the early years of the 21st century has severely reduced electricity generation capacity (some 60% of Tanzania's electricity supplies are generated by hydro-electric schemes). During 2006 Tanzania suffered a crippling series of "load-shedding" or power rationing because of the shortfall of generated power, largely because of insufficient hydro-electric generation. The impact of this power gap is estimated to have reduced national GDP growth by at least four percentage points to 5.9 for 2006. Plans to increase gas and coal fueled generation capacity are likely to take some years to implement, and growth is forecast to be increased to seven per cent per year, and perhaps eight or more.

Is this recent enough for you Jeffrey???

Here is a short film clip of interest. In addition, there are numerous interesting articles in descending chronological order. Click on the heading to read the whole article.

The Shock Doctrine Short Film

Okay folks, there are many that post and have something... There are some that run out of answers and resort to name calling.

Even with relaxed rules in Politics it reaches a point where name calling is not acceptable.

The thread is locked for 24 hours while people have time to consider...

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Edit: Todate Robert has failed to comply with the normal process of restoring a "locked thread."

The reason the thread was locked the SECOND TIME was that there was no discussion/debate of political thought. There was mostly name calling, that would indicate that reasons/proof for one side or the other was no longer there.

Okay, here is the status of this Thread. After locking the thread my job called me away to a location that has virtually no Internet access. Enough things were going on that other mods did not automatically unlock the thread.

I received a PM from Robert asking for the thread to be unlocked. I looked at the thread and replied to Robert. His reply was cleanup the thread. I looked again, I felt the if I just went through and cleaned the thread and unlocked it there would be much that should be seen that would then be missing. I Sent a PM to Robert that if he wanted to continue the thread he needed to start
LIES, Lies, lies Part II
If that was unacceptable, he (Robert) could Red-x the thread or email Setimods to override my action with his explanation as to why it should be reactivated. That is the proper method to have a locked thread unlocked. That provides a record of why the locked thread was reactivated.

Edit:
While some rules are relaxed a bit in the Political Forum, there are still rules!

In my re-reading of the Private Messages and then the thread (again), Robert did not want the thread cleaned up. He only wanted it restored. To that extent, I would consider that what I thought read, was not necessarily what he meant.

Robert was told to email Setimods with a proper request to have the thread restored. His preference is that he has PM'd me and other Moderators without following proper procedures. That is incorrect.

Somewhere in all this, it appears that no one is interested the debate or debating other issues that were raised and ignored. They are only interested statements that would be considered name calling. Somewhere in all this many have lost sight of the original post/debate. They have lost sight of various other questions that others have posted unanswered.

As I look that the total number of post to the thread, it becomes truncated at the last 75 posts. Then a new person would not see all the posts unless they noticed the "click here" to see the total number of posts. Most posters at the point where it reaches 300+ posts start a new thread "pick a topic - Part II."

At This point if anyone wants the thread reopened they can email Setimods with reasons why it should be restored. Or they can take time to email Eric Directly. Those are the only two avenues to have the thread restored.

I find it very sad that a few people are having a laughing good time at other expense... My action (in this case) and the actions of other moderators are for greater good of the Seti Users. There is a reason that I do not post in the Forums, there are a few individuals that would state that I am biased... At this point, I am sad that I can not say what I truly feel. I have been around for a number of years and because I am a Moderator, I am muzzled. So I sit quietly and moderate, if you draw me as having moderate your post and I take time to explain... Listen.

Regards

Pappa

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