So exactly what rights and liberties have you lost? Gotta be the 10th time I've asked this question and still no response from anyone.

Another flat out lie.

Considering my forum join date precedes yours by more than 5 years...common sense tells people capable of RATIONAL THOUGHT, that there are many topics of discussion which have taken place without your knowledge or input.

Once again, the light of undeniable truth shining on the path of ignorance you choose to follow on a daily basis.

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Considering my forum join date precedes yours by more than 5 years...common sense tells people capable of RATIONAL THOUGHT, that [snip]

Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of people have grown tired of arguing with you... ;)

(I see the 'rank card' has been pulled.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

The problem you fail to comprehend is that the majority of attacks have hailed from the middle east.

The problem you fail to comprehend is that the majority of 'terrorists' are homegrown in response to oppression... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

talking to neo-cons is tiring at best.

Especially while they remain above the rules... ;)

(You can't win a game that's fixed.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

The problem you fail to comprehend is that the majority of attacks have hailed from the middle east.

The problem you fail to comprehend is that the majority of 'terrorists' are homegrown in response to oppression... ;)

Justifying murder with oppression.

You're more screwed up than I could have possibly imagined!!!

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Justifying murder with oppression.

Oppression is murder... It's just a slower process... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Justifying murder with oppression.

Oppression is murder... It's just a slower process... ;)

Every dictionary on the planet disagrees with you.

Once again the stark difference between belief and fact shines it's light on the ignorant.

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Once again the stark difference between belief and fact shines it's light on the ignorant.

Actually, it's the difference between a man and a man with a conscience... ;)

(There's a bigger picture, you just don't see it.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Here's a short timeline of US involvement in the Middle East.
It isn't complete and was last updated in 2001 but it clearly shows why some people in the region might be a little angry when Uncle Sam comes calling.

http://www.zmag.org/middletimeline.htm

I hope this helps to present a better idea as to what the big picture really is.

Here's a short timeline of US involvement in the Middle East.
It isn't complete and was last updated in 2001 but it clearly shows why some people in the region might be a little angry when Uncle Sam comes calling.

http://www.zmag.org/middletimeline.htm

I hope this helps to present a better idea as to what the big picture really is.

The BIG picture is real easy to understand.

After decades of global terrorism perpetrated by the middle east, the United States has started fighting back.

Simply put (for the simpletons in the crowd) no action on our part justifies hijacking airplanes, suicide bombings, or the intentional targeting of civilian populations.

Should you feel differently, please point out on your nifty little time line which event(s) justifies the mass murder of thousands of New York citizens or STFU.

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You ask what action the US has taken in the Middle East that justifies being attacked on Sept 11?

Violence leads to only more violence and I believe nothing justifies that act.

Having said this, I do believe that when a country is involved in overthrowing democratically elected governments, assassinations, weapons dealing and propping up dictators with both money and troops- there may come a time where those most affected by the involvement might take actions against the country they see as the creator of whatever woes they are suffering.

In the case of Sept 11, Bin Laden wanted US troops out of Saudi Arabia.
Bush, in spite of all his posturing and bluster, did remove the troops, giving Binboy exactly what he demanded.
Since then, no more trouble from Bin Laden.

You ask what action the US has taken in the Middle East that justifies being attacked on Sept 11?

No, I asked you what actions justified the targeting of civilian populations and the mass murder of thousands of New York citizens.

Supporting our allies doesn't justify it.
Overthrowing dictators doesn't justify it, not to mention that 100% support of a "democratically elected" leader doesn't suggest a fair election by any stretch of the imagination.
Selling arms for the purpose of self-defense doesn't justify it.
And the assassination of Qassium in 1963 by the Baath Party (NOT AMERICA) doesn't justify it either.

BTW, we started removing troops from Saudi Arabia in August 2003. A full 5 months after invading Iraq and 3 years after invading Afghanistan rather than in the wake of 911 as you have falsely implied.

Furthermore, as the founder and leader of Al-Qaeda, stating that there has been no trouble out of Bin Laden since 911 is just another example of the lies and hypocrisy vomited forth by liberals like yourself. Do you not blame Bush for every American action you disagree with that's taken place under his leadership? Then why not hold your "hero" to the same standard?

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You ask what action the US has taken in the Middle East that justifies being attacked on Sept 11?

No, I asked you what actions justified the targeting of civilian populations and the mass murder of thousands of New York citizens.

Supporting our allies doesn't justify it.
Overthrowing dictators doesn't justify it, not to mention that 100% support of a "democratically elected" leader doesn't suggest a fair election by any stretch of the imagination.
Selling arms for the purpose of self-defense doesn't justify it.
And the assassination of Qassium in 1963 by the Baath Party (NOT AMERICA) doesn't justify it either.

BTW, we started removing troops from Saudi Arabia in August 2003. A full 5 months after invading Iraq and 3 years after invading Afghanistan rather than in the wake of 911 as you have falsely implied.

Furthermore, as the founder and leader of Al-Qaeda, stating that there has been no trouble out of Bin Laden since 911 is just another example of the lies and hypocrisy vomited forth by liberal pieces of trash like yourself. Do you not blame Bush for every American action you disagree with that's taken place under his leadership? Then why not hold your "hero" to the same standard?

It would seem that your position could be summed up as "US foreign policy is perfect, and any attack on the US perpetrated by those that believe otherwise is simply because the attackers have failed to comprehend the ultimate wisdom of the US's actions.". You do know that being critical of one's own government is not an act of treason don't you? Nor does it imply that you believe the actions of any attackers were justified.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

You ask what action the US has taken in the Middle East that justifies being attacked on Sept 11?

No, I asked you what actions justified the targeting of civilian populations and the mass murder of thousands of New York citizens.

Supporting our allies doesn't justify it.
Overthrowing dictators doesn't justify it, not to mention that 100% support of a "democratically elected" leader doesn't suggest a fair election by any stretch of the imagination.
Selling arms for the purpose of self-defense doesn't justify it.
And the assassination of Qassium in 1963 by the Baath Party (NOT AMERICA) doesn't justify it either.

BTW, we started removing troops from Saudi Arabia in August 2003. A full 5 months after invading Iraq and 3 years after invading Afghanistan rather than in the wake of 911 as you have falsely implied.

Furthermore, as the founder and leader of Al-Qaeda, stating that there has been no trouble out of Bin Laden since 911 is just another example of the lies and hypocrisy vomited forth by liberal pieces of trash like yourself. Do you not blame Bush for every American action you disagree with that's taken place under his leadership? Then why not hold your "hero" to the same standard?

It would seem that your position could be summed up as "US foreign policy is perfect, and any attack on the US perpetrated by those that believe otherwise is simply because the attackers have failed to comprehend the ultimate wisdom of the US's actions.".

Certainly not, no one and no thing is perfect in this world. My stance is that NO aspect of our foreign policy justifies suicide bombings or the intentional targeting of civilian populations with acts of aggression

You do know that being critical of one's own government is not an act of treason don't you?

He's not being critical of his own government. He's being critical of ours...A fact I have pointed out previously in this very topic. And yes, I do have a problem with an individual criticizing that which he has no control over while practically ignoring the actions of a government he DOES have a say in. It's commonly referred to as hypocrisy.

Nor does it imply that you believe the actions of any attackers were justified.

If he believes their actions are unjust, why does he continue to imply they are OUR fault, through outright lies and propaganda, rather than placing responsibility at the feet of the perpetrators?

For instance, was the purpose of the time line to show why targeting civilian populations is wrong, or to justify the actions of terrorist by illustrating why "some people in the region might be a little angry when Uncle Sam comes calling"? Or how about this statement which illustrates his "understanding" of mass murder: there may come a time where those most affected by the involvement might take actions against the country they see as the creator of whatever woes they are suffering. Guess what, they didn't take action against our country, they took action against civilians, as they've been doing for the past 30+ years. Simply put, his stance is based on propaganda, half-truth in hopes that you don't know the full story, and outright lies.

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Attempting to communicate with the mouthbreather is like talking to a recorded telemarketing machine.
The message is one way and it's annoying. The guy formed his opinions during the Reagan era and hasn't moved one inch toward developing a social conscience since that point. ME ME ME MINE MINE MINE

Smashedbrain is angry at civilian deaths only when they are American civilian deaths. What about the civilians in the Middle East?
Have we not seen the photos of the wounded and killed children?
Can't he understand that they are just as outraged at these kind of deaths as we are?

Not everyone is a maniac suicide bomber in the region.

Just the same way, not everyone in America gets their opinions from Limbaugh.
Some people know that what their government is doing is wrong.

Attempting to communicate with the mouthbreather is like talking to a recorded telemarketing machine.
The message is one way and it's annoying. The guy formed his opinions during the Reagan era and hasn't moved one inch toward developing a social conscience since that point. ME ME ME MINE MINE MINE

Actually I was in High School during the Reagan years. My political opinions were formed during the Clinton administration, hence the me me me mine mine mine...and while I'll agree that my message IS one way, I don't have LIE in order to defend it.

Smashedbrain is angry at civilian deaths only when they are American civilian deaths. What about the civilians in the Middle East?

What about them?
1. They are the enemy
2. Not one single civilian causality can be attributed to the intentional and premeditated targeting of civilians, which certainly cannot be said by Al-Qaeda, Hamas, or any other terrorist organization hailing from the middle east.

Have we not seen the photos of the wounded and killed children?

I refer you to comment #2 above.

Can't he understand that they are just as outraged at these kind of deaths as we are?

Apparently not...We aren't guilty of using children or the mentally retarded for suicide bombings. In fact, we've gone above and beyond the call of duty in our attempts to minimize civilian causalities as well as rebuilding schools and reestablishing modern conveniences such as electricity and running water.

Not everyone is a maniac suicide bomber in the region.

What a coincidence, everyone there isn't a target either. Can the same be said for the occupants of the World Trade Center on 911?

Just the same way, not everyone in America gets their opinions from Limbaugh.
Some people know that what their government is doing is wrong.

Disagreeing with the government based on factual evidence is a FAAAAAAAAR cry from what you are doing as has been illustrated time and time again. If you disagree with Bush, say you disagree with Bush, don't lie and say he led you to believe Saddam was involved with 911. Likewise, if you disagree with the actions of the terrorists, say you disagree with the terrorists, don't justify their suicide bombings as retribution for our foreign policy. If you don't like civilian causalities, complain about the habitual use of suicide bombers on civilian targets, but don't compare that to the accidental death of a handful of innocent bystanders caught in the middle of a war.

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You do know that being critical of one's own government is not an act of treason don't you?

He's not being critical of his own government. He's being critical of ours...A fact I have pointed out previously in this very topic. And yes, I do have a problem with an individual criticizing that which he has no control over while practically ignoring the actions of a government he DOES have a say in. It's commonly referred to as hypocrisy.

One could assume, based on your comments, that you believe that Robert's government has done things of which you disapprove, and that you are also practically ignoring the actions of your own, I've been around these parts a while I can't say that you haven't criticized US foreign policy, I also cannot recall seeing such comments from you.

I, like you, do not believe the attack on my adopted home town a little over 6 years ago was a justifiable response to prior misdeeds (perceived or otherwise) resulting from US foreign policy. Though I do understand that my view might be different if I were related to one of those killed when the US Navy shot down an Iran-bound commercial airliner, or one of the 17,000 or so Lebanese killed during Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 when the US did not protest Isreal's use of the weapons it had purchased from the US solely for purposes of self-defense.

I hope not, I hope that I would still believe that two wrongs do not make a right, but I cannot rule out the possibility, and I suspect it is this possibility of a different view based on circumstances that Robert was referring to earlier in the thread. I also happen to believe that Theodore Roosevelt was right when he said "Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.", the US certainly seems to have the big stick, but I'm not sure we've been speaking softly.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Here ya go.......
Chew on this, if you may......Joan Baez..God On Our Side......

Who's side is God on?

"You never ask questions..when God's on your side...."

" and if God is on our side....he'll stop the next war......'

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

What a coincidence, everyone there isn't a target either. Can the same be said for the occupants of the World Trade Center on 911?

Tell me again how many Iraqis were involved in the Sept 11 attack?

There were 19 hijackers in that attack and NOT ONE was Iraqi.

Here's their faces, names and countries they came from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizers_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks

How many Saudis do you count in this bunch? I see 15 of 19.
What was the main demand of Bin Laden? American troops out of Saudi Arabia.
Can you put one and one together?

Bin Laden got what he wanted and Bush got what he wanted.

In the middle are a lot of dead Iraqis.


On the sidelines are cheerleaders like you praising your man of action president.

For decency's sake, open your eyes. Stop being such a meat stick.

Bin Laden got what he wanted and Bush got what he wanted.

In the middle are a lot of dead Iraqis.


On the sidelines are cheerleaders like you praising your man of action president.

For decency's sake, open your eyes. Stop being such a meat stick.

A lot of dead US soldiers as well.........

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster