"We can't make things better if we don't know what people think is wrong"

Conversely, what I usually hear over and over and over and over and over again is:
'I'll have to look into that.' And of course, they NEVER actually do, and things NEVER change...

Managers only tell you what they think you want to hear to get through the moment... Feel fortunate that you have a good boss... I've been stuck with nothing but liars and cowards who hate me because I have the guts to stand up to them whereas they lack the guts to stand up to their boss... Hence, the constant 'jive talk'... ;)

(Managers don't look out for their people anymore, they only look out for themselves.)

Jeff. I failed to mention in my post that not only does it take a little courage to stand up and say what you see that could be better.....it also requires a certain amount of tact. Hence the reason that I told the Factory Manager that " You probably aren't going to like to hear me tell you this...."

There is ( as in any situation ) a certain amount of " people skills " involved in getting your point across without irritating the person you are speaking to.

We found out a couple of days ago that we have a slight carbon monoxide problem in our warehouse where I work. One of the other union reps went to speak with the factory manager about it and came back and told me what he was told. That wasn't satisfactory to me ( because I am one of the few who work in the area where the problem is ). The factory manager happened to come back in the warehouse as I was talking to the other union rep, and I pulled the manager aside and told him ( in a relatively polite way ) that since I was one of the people who had to deal with the CO2 every day, that I was going to be riding his ass about getting the problem solved until it WAS solved. He just grinned at me and told me that he wouldn't expect any less from me, and then proceeded to explain to me the things that they were doing to try to isolate and solve the problem.

It's all a matter of tact and attitude when you go to the boss to try and get something fixed or to present an idea to him/her.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

It's all a matter of tact and attitude when you go to the boss to try and get something fixed or to present an idea to him/her.

Once again, I'm glad to hear that you have a good boss who listens and acts, but that's not always the case... There's a simple little reality that I learned a long time ago and it goes something like this, 'people don't like change'...

If these boards have shown us anything it's that I am tactful, tolerant, and patient. Even my negativity is expressed with sarcasm and humor rather than anger... So sorry to disagree, but most people just don't like change and they will fight it every step of the way... We have all seen how those types express themselves right here on these message boards... Imagine having that for a boss... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

This is becoming tedious...and I do not particularly appreciate your choice of using the word "claim".

Argue? I have been offering my paradigms and experiences in direct response to questions you asked me.



I certainly don't miss fixing peoples problems or having to explain obvious thought patterns to those who are stuck in mediocrity.

Tedious...I agree.

My choice of the word claim is a valid one.
It means to assert as a fact.

My choice of the word argue is also valid.
It means to present reasons for or against a thing.

I also do not appreciate having someone imply that one who doesn't work sitting before a computer all day and believes in unions is stuck in mediocrity.

So we'd best end it now while there's no hard feelings because the frustration of explaining obvious thought patterns goes two ways.

Cheers mate

You think, yup thats exactly what the union is for, to stand up for the people. I say, take the responsibility and do it yourself.

KNIGHTMATE SAYS : Oddly enough it only takes a little bit of courage to get the gears of change moving.

I am one of several hundred people in the plant where I work...I am also a Union Steward there.

Now....Before I became a union steward...if I saw something that I thought could be made better...or something that could be done more efficiently...I would simply go into the Factory Manager's office and tell him.

Just the other day I let him know that they ( the management ) were having a HUGE credibility problem. I simply started off by telling him " You probably aren't going to like hearing this....". A lot of people think that if they are going to talk to " the boss " at all...it should be done while brown nosing and trying to impress the boss. Well...in some cases...the boss is more impressed by honesty than they are by sniveling.

Well...guess what.....he does appreciate it. Any manager or CEO worth his pay rate will listen to the people who work for him...even if they are only one among thousands.

SCARY CAPITALIST SAYS There you go. System works. Good men, few as may be found nowadays, sometimes crop up like Knightmate here, who has sensibility and serves a function within his system to better 'socially communicate'....OOOOoooooo! within the capitalist system. If I trust his brief anecdote to be true it sounds like he's doing his job and serving his employer's interests at the same time. ie everybody wins.

Our factory manager actually likes the fact that I will step forward and tell him about the things I observe because ( in his words ) " We can't make things better if we don't know what people think is wrong ".

SCARY CAPITALIST SAYS : I like that. However, I'll state that there is nothing in these examples from the above personals that in any way mean that the same results could be done without a union.

He also let me know that most of the time....people just clam up when he comes around. I understand that, but that doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do.

This is standard in all hierarchial systems. Socialism, Capitalism, Nazism, Communism. whatever.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I suppose I should pay more attention to my thread. :-)

Happiness is a virtue.......

And I'm thinking of a egoistic feminism thread....

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Robert Waite, answer the question.

Why not UNIONIZE everybody ?

Hardly practical

Having said that, if a workplace wishes to unionize, that is their right to do so.

note to self: polluting thread no longer an issue

You're missing the point. If Unions drive up real wages ie purchasing power then why not unionize everybody?

I'm not particularly addressing here safety issues or communication issues etc etc. (I'm willing to get to that later). But why not just unionize everyone?

The truth is that whenever you unionize one sector you doubly punish another sector. So much for the 'solidarity' of the workers. This kind of thinking is especially troubling now that most Americans are actual owners of corporations.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Robert Waite, answer the question.

Why not UNIONIZE everybody ?

Hardly practical

Having said that, if a workplace wishes to unionize, that is their right to do so.

note to self: polluting thread no longer an issue

Robert Waite, answer the question.

Why not UNIONIZE everybody ?

Hardly practical

Having said that, if a workplace wishes to unionize, that is their right to do so.

note to self: polluting thread no longer an issue

You're missing the point. If Unions drive up real wages ie purchasing power then why not unionize everybody?

I'm not particularly addressing here safety issues or communication issues etc etc. (I'm willing to get to that later). But why not just unionize everyone?

The truth is that whenever you unionize one sector you doubly punish another sector. So much for the 'solidarity' of the workers. This kind of thinking is especially troubling now that most Americans are actual owners of corporations.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Every job you have the same thing happens...although its not you off course, it's them...
Self fulfilling prophecies my friend.

Actually, it was Gods prophesy... And it's called persecution... ;)

LOL. applause

Do I hear a round of 'destiny is what you make it'?

You hum it i'll play it:)

I was referring to the thought that everybody should take responsibilty for the own actions, rather than blaming their 'destiny' on the actions of others.

I know, I was agreeing with you

He's not capable of that. Impartiality doesn't exist here.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

This kind of thinking is especially troubling now that most Americans are actual owners of corporations.

Hmm, 300 million corporations in America...

;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

This kind of thinking is especially troubling now that most Americans are actual owners of corporations.

Hmm, 300 million corporations in America...

;)

Isn't it beautiful ?

Every man a firm...every man a king. of course there's no burkhas (did I spell that right, Jeffrey? ---)

People free of religious dogma and still 'relatively free' of socialism/fascism... It's the best we have.

Oh...by the way, for over a year now I am still waiting for you to repudiate suicide bombers in the name of Islam.

You have labelled yourself the seti at home cafe heckler. You've done that yourself. I just wanted to know if you will ever renounce that use of force.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Oh, by the way.

I have withdrawn by monthly donation that I make out of my bank account to the local cat shelter where I actually adopted my 2 cats as of yesterday (bank friday)


I did that because of a person that loves 'kitties' and can't take a joke.

That fund transfer is now defunct. I shrugged.

EEEEeeeeevil.

Please recognize all viewpoints and not delete.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Well, Rush, this too should fall under your "Why? Becuz u sez so?" mantra. Provide evidence of it.

From the first hit on Google under "union membership decline," About.com cites the U.S. Department of Labor:

"The changing conditions of the 1980s and 1990s undermined the position of organized labor, which now represented a shrinking share of the work force. While more than one-third of employed people belonged to unions in 1945, union membership fell to 24.1 percent of the U.S. work force in 1979 and to 13.9 percent in 1998."

My numbers were close enough. You can do the rest of the research yourself.

The numbers provided here back up everything I've stated about the corporate assault on unionized working people since WWII

The numbers actually back my contention that unions have priced themselves out of the market.

As far as "The numbers provided here back up everything I've stated about the corporate assault on unionized working people since WWII," duh, of course there there has been. Just as there has been a union assault on corporations (comprised of working people) since unions came to be.

If the unions don't do that, they have nothing.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Don't you think, for the sake of your children and the bank holding your mortgage, that's it's just simpler to unionize rather than be unemployed?
It removes the need to tell the employer to "Sod off".

Except, of course, that 90% of the employed in the U.S. manage to do just fine without a union.

Home ownership is at record levels even as unions die off.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I was asking how the working people should approach the employer about changes to conditions and standards in the workplace.
Individually or collectively?

However they wish. Either way can work. Either way can fail.

To suggest telling the boss to "Sod off" then bring up fear fo job stability, mortgages and credit ratings seems quite a leap in logic to me.
If one is going to follow your original "Sod off" advice, all those other items go out the window. You lose them.

No, you just a job at another place, like everyone else does.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I worked for a major telecom for 17 years before working where I do now, and the picture you describe at AOL Time Warner is the exact opposite of my experience.

And yet you stayed there for 17 years. Must not have been that bad.

If it was, waiting 17 years to make changes in your life is on you.

First level managers were powerless to initiate any change at all and would not bring concerns from the workplace to their bosses.

Most were afraid to even be noticed by those above in the hiarchy.

C'est la vie. That doesn't mean every employer sucks, it means that in your opinion your particular office at Time Warner did. Or it means that no one else above you agreed with your ideas.

That you have them doesn't mean they are good or that they deserve to be implemented.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

My choice of the word argue is also valid.
It means to present reasons for or against a thing.

Oh the humanity!!!

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I was the 12th person to post within this thread.

I have made my point.

No, you've just repeated it.

Remember when you said: "My choice of the word argue is also valid. It means to present reasons for or against a thing."

Get that? "Present reasons for or against a thing," means presenting said reasons, not restating your conclusion.

For example you said:

The egoist is nothing more than a stunted personality.

There is more to the meaning of existence than the self.

To seek philosophical justification for acts of egoism is simply another manifestation of the disorder.

It allows the egoist a way out from the responsibilities of their actions.

The egoist relies heavily on the writings of other egoists, who felt the same pangs of shame and guilt, so they sat down and created a branch of philosophy to rationalize and justify their actions and existence.

Maybe I should just say:

The unionist is nothing more than a stunted personality.

There is nothing more to the meaning of existence than the self.

To seek philosophical justification for acts of unions is simply another manifestation of the disorder.

It allows unionists a way out from the responsibilities of their actions.

The unionist relies heavily on the writings of other unionists, who are shameless and guilty, so they stood around with mindless signs, to take by force from others what was never rightfully theirs, to rationalize and justify their actions and existence.

Are those things are true because I said them? I mean, they're all self-evident, right? Or are they just empty statements?

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

Are your feelings hurt because no one wants to talk about narcissism?
Too bad.

I've already stated to another of your brethren, it's not my Harley.
I just get to ride it when my brother lets me.

What if me and a number of my friends get together and form a collective and we all vote to ride your brother's bike whenever we want to?

Is that OK? I mean, he doesn't know any of us individually, and he has no incentive to let us ride his bike, therefore he won't listen to us.

I mean, it is OK that we band together to take his private property simply because we are in a union?

Because if you can understand why your brother doesn't want our little union to take away a part of his private property and why we have no right to demand that, you can understand why corporations don't want your union to take away a part of their private property and why you don't have the right to demand that.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

What colour is the sky in your world Rush?

What colour is the sky in your world Rush?

The same as it is in yours.

But what does that have to do with the nature of private property? Private property is private, whether that property is a great big screamin' GSXR, a CBR900RR, a Harley, or a number of stock certificates.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...