I like the Euro. I think we were silly not to get it.

Sorry, fundamentally disagree. We've sold our Nationality down the river.

That is just absurd. I don't think France is any less French for having the Euro..Germany any less German. All they have done is enabled their businesses to deal with each other in a much easier way.

Britain is stupid if it thinks that it is benefiting from somehow excluding ourselves from one of the biggest global markets right on our doorstep. We get ripped off in this country enough.. everyone knows that the brits pay more for everything than elsewhere, mainly because of our island mentality.

I say Europe is a good thing and I am proud to be both British and European. I can't wait til we join the Euro!!

Huh? A long response but I need to unwind a bit.

We are not excluding ourselves from any market. We have developed the single market in the same way as all the others and had the benefits. That's what we voted for in 1976. It worked! What has not worked is the fact that we have not been asked what we want for our future. Had the question been do you want not just a single market but also a union based on social, political and economic integration where we all become the same then I think people would have said no. Fundamentally there is nothing wrong with the marketplace and we get benefit for sure. We are actually the biggest supporter of open markets and, as a global trading nation, we always have been. The actual problem facing the market right now is protectionist Europe - yes indeed France as the main protagonist. France as recently as August wants protection for its industry and had inserted in the reform treaty the right to do this rather than being open. So, the very ting that really worked well in the EU shambles is now at risk and it was NOT US that put it there.

Unless something happens soon three "drifts" will kill the EU and take the little good it has with all the bad it has.

Firstly Belgium will blow apart and become the first EU nation to split up and dissolve right under the noses of the great EU that "brings nations together". This will happen because of racial origin which is completely contrary to all the EU stands for and therefore the very biggest slap in the mush it could ever get.

Secondly the Euro will drag some nations up and some down. The downside folks will get cheesed off and try to artificially change the value of the Euro by various means and the upsiders will see their wealth diminish -well actually they will resist and the Euro will end.

Thirdly the single market will fall apart as nations protect their vital interests. Example telecoms in Spain. Germans were locked out of buying into that market after Italy and Spain did a deal to keep them out. Wow what an open market that is. Most of all protectionist France will have her way and protect in whatever way it needs to - just like it does the CAP which keeps third world nations poor. The market will collapse and the only worthwhile EU facet will fall.

Nations who have given up vital services, defence, economic resources such as gas etc will fall victim to nations like Russia who will walk around Europe picking up what it wants.


Good luck all - vote now for a new and better Europe that serves us rather than controls us an dmakes us all the same. Demand a referendum as promised. Tell Brown he is dishonest for promising a referendum in a manifesto and then backing off from the promise - thats called dishonesty.

See you in the Angel SW9 if you want more but really......take a good long look at the OpenEurope material. Click my sig its on that page on the right somewhere. They do some good work and are not anti Europe. They are anti THIS ineffective, costly, normalising, standardising, trivia dealing Europe.

-- A few Did you knows --


Did you know - 81% of the fish caught in the North Sea off Scotland is thrown back - dead. Its true. Because of EU regulations we kill the small fish thus destroying our long term fish stocks under regulations intended to protect them. This is the EU at work protecting our resources!

Did you know - Despite Tony Blair's insistence that foreign criminals would be automatically deported, EU legislation is stopping over 3,000 criminals from other EU countries being deported. This includes the murderer of a headmaster whose killer is not British, is still a threat to us in the UK (Home Office says so) but cannot be deported. So the EU forces us to be exposed to a danger that if we governed ourselves we would not have to face. Well - 3000 dangers actually.

Did you know - NATO-EU relations have been "wrecked" by a long running row over release of confidential papers to Cyprus and Malta which they are not cleared to receive. One NATO official describes relations with the EU as "worse than that with Russia". Why does the EU seem intent upon destroying NATO after it has been so successful in keeping the peace across Europe since WWII? The EU keeps on about security being important and threatens to kill off the organisation that delivers it. Odd really. They say one thing...they mean another...and they do something else entirely.

Did you know - the new Reform Treaty will, in an emergency, hand over all the UKs oil and gas reserves to the EU. The total stock of oil and gas is equivalent to - yes you guessed it - what the UK has. No one else has any really so when the chips are down and we need it most it will be taken away by the EU - to keep Brussels warm I guess. How exactly is our government looking after our interests if they allow this to happen I ask?

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Wow!!!

I need to digest that lot before replying.

See you in the Angel SW9 if you want more

You buying?

Only if you buy one back!

---

Hahaha... I'm laughing because I just wrote a nice little essay (for my Uni course) about the history of European integration and how far its come yada yada... The funny thing is some of you people in here haven't progressed at all from the pathetic squabbling nations that all picked sides and fought two pretty big wars.

I'm pretty happy with living in Australia and removed from all that bickering.

So... Feel free to bust up that EU thing you got goin on and get back to picking fights. I wonder who's side we'll choose. I wonder who's side the US will choose. You should wonder the same.

Like it or not the EU is the best thing that has and could ever happen to Europe. Deal with it.

---

Kolch - Crunching for the BOINC@Australia team since July 2004.
Search for your own intelligence...

Hahaha... I'm laughing because I just wrote a nice little essay (for my Uni course) about the history of European integration and how far its come yada yada... The funny thing is some of you people in here haven't progressed at all from the pathetic squabbling nations that all picked sides and fought two pretty big wars.

I'm pretty happy with living in Australia and removed from all that bickering.

So... Feel free to bust up that EU thing you got goin on and get back to picking fights. I wonder who's side we'll choose. I wonder who's side the US will choose. You should wonder the same.

Like it or not the EU is the best thing that has and could ever happen to Europe. Deal with it.

The US government will side with whatever country does not support a unified Euro but it will also be diplomatic with whatever side has power or wealth.

Australians also fought in the last two world wars. There is no reason to think Aus' would not fight in the next major war given it relies on imports from many other parts of the globe. (Just as the UK does.)

Personally I want the EU to happen as long as we all have a say in how it happens and it does not over-power national values or heritages.

I do not want to have a referendum until we have included countries like Turkey.

If we are going to have a unified market then we might as well make sure we involve everyone even if some of those parties are not yet up to the "European" standard (whatever that may mean.)


However just because we differ and argue does not mean we are 'pathetic squabbling nations'...

In Europe we do not have the luxury of separating ourselves from our past.

Thousands of years of different histories weigh heavy up on us.

At least we are not shooting each other again...

... Yet ;o)

Hahaha... I'm laughing because I just wrote a nice little essay (for my Uni course) about the history of European integration and how far its come yada yada... The funny thing is some of you people in here haven't progressed at all from the pathetic squabbling nations that all picked sides and fought two pretty big wars.

I'm pretty happy with living in Australia and removed from all that bickering.

So... Feel free to bust up that EU thing you got goin on and get back to picking fights. I wonder who's side we'll choose. I wonder who's side the US will choose. You should wonder the same.

Like it or not the EU is the best thing that has and could ever happen to Europe. Deal with it.

Maybe it could be the best thing but imho it wasn't the right time for it, and not the right way to do. They made the same mistakes West Germany did with the re-union of Germany. Though the re-union was the right thing, the way it was done was rather an annexation than a re-union. They threw the new currency and the market system upon us, like: eat it or die. And with the EU it was quite the same thing. No slow growing together but an annexation, a Borg-like assimilation.

"We are EU. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."

---

Account frozen...

Hahaha... I'm laughing because I just wrote a nice little essay (for my Uni course) about the history of European integration and how far its come yada yada... The funny thing is some of you people in here haven't progressed at all from the pathetic squabbling nations that all picked sides and fought two pretty big wars.

I'm pretty happy with living in Australia and removed from all that bickering.

So... Feel free to bust up that EU thing you got goin on and get back to picking fights. I wonder who's side we'll choose. I wonder who's side the US will choose. You should wonder the same.

Like it or not the EU is the best thing that has and could ever happen to Europe. Deal with it.

I would not laugh if I were you. Its the heat of white hot metal being forged and shaped on the anvil that is all. Its only world government that is being hammered out nothing too important. We all want a Europe but we want a say in it : nothing wrong with that. I think you should ask yourself the question about what will happen to Australia. Who will see it as important enough to ally with. You could join the EU you know. Its open to anyone anywhere. Already the USA are talking about protocols that will see it normalise trade and eventually join - in say 30 years. Perhaps you need to start the debate down there. Equally perhaps you need to make sure it is something you can join in the future by shaping it now instead of mocking we shapers. Oh and by the way Japan would have invaded you irresepective of whatever Europe did in 1939. So please get real and thank your lucky stars there are nations and people will stand up for themselves - and its not squabbling by the way - its politics.

---

For the record, the US has been and afaik continues to be highly supportive of a strong EU. War in Europe really helps no one. A strong European economy gives countries such as Australia and the US a strong trading partner other than China or Japan.

I'm also quite certain the the US and Australia, and any other country outside of what would be recognised as Europe would be disallowed. See here.
So this says alot regarding your knowledge of the workings of the European Union.

Regarding your comments about the Japanese threat in WWII, it was the US and ourselves who fought the Japanese all the way back from (British) Singapore, right back to Japan. In years prior to the war Britain had been decreasing its military prescence in the Asian area, much to the concern of Australians. However we didn't let this stop us from answering the call to arms and as soon as Britain was at war Australia was at war. We fought in Europe because of our British heritage, because of our strong trading ties with Britain, because the Nazi's were clearly aggressive predators that needed to be stopped.

My point is that if the breaking down of the EU leads to another war in Europe it could well be viewed by outsiders as a civil war of sorts and I personally would be happy to let you fight it out amongst yourselves. I think that the US might do the same. So you could expect a long and costly war of attrition.

European integration has been going on for 60 years. In an age of globalisation and emerging superpowers, when is going to be a better time for the EU?

---

Kolch - Crunching for the BOINC@Australia team since July 2004.
Search for your own intelligence...

For the record, the US has been and afaik continues to be highly supportive of a strong EU.

This will be true until one of the oil producing countries decides to trade oil in Euros instead of Dollars.

I don't think the US would ever attack central Europe as it is today but it will obviously protect it's own commercial interests at one level or another.

War in Europe really helps no one. A strong European economy gives countries such as Australia and the US a strong trading partner other than China or Japan.

Don't worry. Europe is not going to war just yet. :o)

SNIP...
My point is that if the breaking down of the EU leads to another war in Europe it could well be viewed by outsiders as a civil war of sorts and I personally would be happy to let you fight it out amongst yourselves. I think that the US might do the same. So you could expect a long and costly war of attrition.

Civil war is not the same as war between nations.

We are not the same as America or Australia. We are many nations who have to co-exist. We are not federal states.

If it takes us longer to sort out our differences it is because we have a long unbroken lineage.

In this I envy the US and Australia.

I wish Europe could underscore it's history and just start again but I doubt that will happen.

European integration has been going on for 60 years. In an age of globalisation and emerging superpowers, when is going to be a better time for the EU?

Actually European integration has been going on for thousands of years. The ancient Greek and Roman superpowers were two early examples of this process.

For the record, the US has been and afaik continues to be highly supportive of a strong EU. War in Europe really helps no one. A strong European economy gives countries such as Australia and the US a strong trading partner other than China or Japan.

I'm also quite certain the the US and Australia, and any other country outside of what would be recognised as Europe would be disallowed. See here.
So this says alot regarding your knowledge of the workings of the European Union.

Regarding your comments about the Japanese threat in WWII, it was the US and ourselves who fought the Japanese all the way back from (British) Singapore, right back to Japan. In years prior to the war Britain had been decreasing its military prescence in the Asian area, much to the concern of Australians. However we didn't let this stop us from answering the call to arms and as soon as Britain was at war Australia was at war. We fought in Europe because of our British heritage, because of our strong trading ties with Britain, because the Nazi's were clearly aggressive predators that needed to be stopped.

My point is that if the breaking down of the EU leads to another war in Europe it could well be viewed by outsiders as a civil war of sorts and I personally would be happy to let you fight it out amongst yourselves. I think that the US might do the same. So you could expect a long and costly war of attrition.

European integration has been going on for 60 years. In an age of globalisation and emerging superpowers, when is going to be a better time for the EU?

Nobody it talking about war here. The EU is a process by which all nations will be forged into a world government - USA, Australia etc etc. That is the plan - it has nothing to do with being in Europe. As for the link you gave it points no where - but was intended topoint to the Wiki which is not authoritive in these matters. There are moves for a Mediterranean Union which will join with the EU. Already Israel and Lebanon talk about a future in the EU. As I say its not about geography its about a state of mind. Enough of this as it way off topic.

---

The House of Commons Commons European Scrutiny Committee publishes its report tomorrow on the new EU Constitutional Treaty. Pre-release information says it will disagree with Gordon Brown's view of what the treaty effects compared to that of the previous treaty proposal rejected by France and Holland.

It will basically say he has it wrong. This either makes him a liar or severely misled by his colleagues; either way he must now think hard as 81% of the nation want a referendum. Whichever way you view it there is little room to claim any longer that the two treaties are different. The Committee's report will show that of the 440 provisions in the original constitution only two have been removed therefore 338 remain the same in the new treaty. Exactly how Gordon Brown can maintain a position that we should not have a referendum (as promised) when 338/440 provisions are the same, according to Parliament, is a complete and utter mystery.

The man lacks reasonable judgement and/or honesty and cannot now be trusted to keep his promises. This severely undermines any commitments he has made to the nation.

---

It will basically say he has it wrong. This either makes him a liar or severely misled by his colleagues; either way he must now think hard as 81% of the nation want a referendum. Whichever way you view it there is little room to claim any longer that the two treaties are different. The Committee's report will show that of the 440 provisions in the original constitution only two have been removed therefore 338 remain the same in the new treaty. Exactly how Gordon Brown can maintain a position that we should not have a referendum (as promised) when 338/440 provisions are the same, according to Parliament, is a complete and utter mystery.

That's not a cut of two provisions, it's a cut of 102 provisions, nearly a 25% reduction. That is a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the world of politics.

Unless you made the same typo twice.

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

It will basically say he has it wrong. This either makes him a liar or severely misled by his colleagues; either way he must now think hard as 81% of the nation want a referendum. Whichever way you view it there is little room to claim any longer that the two treaties are different. The Committee's report will show that of the 440 provisions in the original constitution only two have been removed therefore 338 remain the same in the new treaty. Exactly how Gordon Brown can maintain a position that we should not have a referendum (as promised) when 338/440 provisions are the same, according to Parliament, is a complete and utter mystery.

That's not a cut of two provisions, it's a cut of 102 provisions, nearly a 25% reduction. That is a SIGNIFICANT reduction in the world of politics.

Unless you made the same typo twice.

Ooooops sorry. 438 of the 440 provisions are the same.

Quote from Sunday Express - "..... the new version is "virtually identical" to the original Constitution, and that only two of the 440 provisions of the treaty are different from those in the Constitution - these changes are the dropping of the EU flag and anthem."

Sorry folks double typo in earlier posts!

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The cross party group of MPs behind the I want Referendum Campaign have published the following press release on the House of Commons EU Scrutiny Committee's findings.

Press statement on Scrutiny Committee findings

Clearly like the public they are deeply suspicious of the Government. To what extent they will influence Parliament in the vote on the Treaty is unclear but it is not a good start for Gordon Brown's deceitful plan to unpick and deconstruct our nation without even asking us what we think.

If you are a UK citizen and what to sign the petition for a referendum or receive research information about the EU or join the referendum campaign group organised by the cross party MPs referred to above then click my sig below and you will find links to take you to those places. Whatever the outcome of all this we just want to have a say in our own future rather than having it decided by people we did not choose to represent. We want something called - d democracy!

---

Just signed up to the campaign in your sig.

I hate and detest everything that the EU is and stands for. It's anti-british and I won't have it.

Cool!
I have to admit I do not hate the EU I just hate losing my country and being told what to do all the time. As I have written to Gordon Brown (and Blair before him)in my letters we want a Europe designed with us and by us not one we are forced in to at any cost.

"What we need is a dynamic and flexible Europe that unites the people and their servant politicians around common ideas, thoughts, philosophies, concepts and one that forges a way forward because we all believe in it. We cannot be coerced any longer into this disunited approach wrongly called "union" that regulates and standardises at will and all at the expense of our choices. The democratic cost of this "union" is high - too high. We want our sovereignty intact. We want our freedoms as a nation. We want you to ally with European nations on matters of common interest without removing our choice later to do something that better protects or serves us. You must see this surely? You must feel this? This is the EU you must deliver. Failure to do this will result in the breakdown of this EU because the people will not tolerate this dictatorial EU entering our everyday lives and even being a threat to us if we consider the recent debacle of not being able to deport a killer convict that is a danger to us; exactly how you satisfied the primary duty of a UK government (to protect its citizens) on this is woeful. It is an unbelievable episode and government should be ashamed of the position it has placed the public."

---

*whew* When I first saw this, I believed Quebec was still....well, being Quebec.

Just signed up to the campaign in your sig.

I hate and detest everything that the EU is and stands for. It's anti-british and I won't have it.

Cool!
I have to admit I do not hate the EU I just hate losing my country and being told what to do all the time. As I have written to Gordon Brown (and Blair before him)in my letters we want a Europe designed with us and by us not one we are forced in to at any cost.

"What we need is a dynamic and flexible Europe that unites the people and their servant politicians around common ideas, thoughts, philosophies, concepts and one that forges a way forward because we all believe in it. We cannot be coerced any longer into this disunited approach wrongly called "union" that regulates and standardises at will and all at the expense of our choices. The democratic cost of this "union" is high - too high. We want our sovereignty intact. We want our freedoms as a nation. We want you to ally with European nations on matters of common interest without removing our choice later to do something that better protects or serves us. You must see this surely? You must feel this? This is the EU you must deliver. Failure to do this will result in the breakdown of this EU because the people will not tolerate this dictatorial EU entering our everyday lives and even being a threat to us if we consider the recent debacle of not being able to deport a killer convict that is a danger to us; exactly how you satisfied the primary duty of a UK government (to protect its citizens) on this is woeful. It is an unbelievable episode and government should be ashamed of the position it has placed the public."

So it seems to me that basically the EU that you want is one that allows you to gain from being in a union but choose to do things which minimise what you give away. Sounds great for you guys but what's in it for the rest of the union? You can bet they are all thinking the same things.

What you are looking for is essentially a reversion to nationalism. Which one can easily see has failed in a global sense.

---

Kolch - Crunching for the BOINC@Australia team since July 2004.
Search for your own intelligence...

Just signed up to the campaign in your sig.

I hate and detest everything that the EU is and stands for. It's anti-british and I won't have it.

Cool!
I have to admit I do not hate the EU I just hate losing my country and being told what to do all the time. As I have written to Gordon Brown (and Blair before him)in my letters we want a Europe designed with us and by us not one we are forced in to at any cost.

"What we need is a dynamic and flexible Europe that unites the people and their servant politicians around common ideas, thoughts, philosophies, concepts and one that forges a way forward because we all believe in it. We cannot be coerced any longer into this disunited approach wrongly called "union" that regulates and standardises at will and all at the expense of our choices. The democratic cost of this "union" is high - too high. We want our sovereignty intact. We want our freedoms as a nation. We want you to ally with European nations on matters of common interest without removing our choice later to do something that better protects or serves us. You must see this surely? You must feel this? This is the EU you must deliver. Failure to do this will result in the breakdown of this EU because the people will not tolerate this dictatorial EU entering our everyday lives and even being a threat to us if we consider the recent debacle of not being able to deport a killer convict that is a danger to us; exactly how you satisfied the primary duty of a UK government (to protect its citizens) on this is woeful. It is an unbelievable episode and government should be ashamed of the position it has placed the public."

So it seems to me that basically the EU that you want is one that allows you to gain from being in a union but choose to do things which minimise what you give away. Sounds great for you guys but what's in it for the rest of the union? You can bet they are all thinking the same things.

What you are looking for is essentially a reversion to nationalism. Which one can easily see has failed in a global sense.

We just want a union that works where countries are happy to join to the extent they wish instead of being coerced in and looking over their shoulders because we are unsure as to what to expect. Nothing is promised about this union. It has no objectives that are shared. There is no argument ever offered by our government as to why it exists. No one ever defends it. It only ever screws up. It is incompetent in almost everything it touches. We cannot elect it nor dismiss it - it dictates what we must do. We cannot hold it to account. It defies the democracy that the UK has preached for decades and it denies the people of EU countries choices and freedoms to select this "governemnt".

However you view this its not about nationalism at all. Its about a lack of democracy and a fear of the future when NO ONE will tell what is going on and you have NO POWER to influence.

You need to be here to feel this.

-- Some more Did you knows --

Contrary to the populist view that the EU has of its own successes - Friends of the Earth have criticised the EU Commission for handing out billions in aid to new member states for projects that will hugely increase greenhouse gases just after announcing tough targets to cut CO2.

Hollywood actor George Clooney and Bob Geldof have lambasted European politicians for celebrating the European Union's 50th anniversary while genocide continues to occur in Sudan. In a letter to EU Council President, Angela Merkel, the pair said there was little to celebrate until something was done to stop the genocide in Darfur.

France managed to reverse the raison-d'etre for the single market by sneaking in a change to the "Constitutional" Treaty negotiations by removing "free and undistorted" competition. Back to protectionism then. But wait we joined for free and open trade!

The BBC reports that kilt wearers could face prosecution if they do not have a licence for their sporran under new regulations which will bring Scottish law into line with EU requirements. The law, designed to protect species whose fur is used to make sporrans, will mean that applicants must prove that the animal was killed lawfully before they will be able to get a licence.

The EU spent twenty years illegalising the UK's measurement system (tons, llbs ounces etc). They said it was essential to the single market and had to be done. Some people have criminal records now for not complying. Well just a few weeks ago the EU changed its mind and said it was OK after all - UK keep your measures - just have both. Why so much grief and anguish over so many years just to be told it was never important in the first place? Are the EU serious or what? Do they know what they are doing?

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Seriously for those that don't know (and you guys living in EU member states bloody well should know) the legislative parts of the EU are made up of the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union.

Who appoints these political cronnies you ask? Very good question. As the answer is: YOU!

Since 1979 the European Parliament has held direct elections every 5 years, with the last elections held in 2004 and the next elections due to be held in 2009. If you don't remember voting in the 2004 election you should ask why this is so.

The Council of the European Union on the other hand is a little different. This council is made up of a minister of each member state. For general Council meetings the ministers will be the Foreign Affairs ministers. If the council is meeting for discussion of agriculture issues the council will be comprised of the Ministers for Agriculture of each member state. Thus you should consider these responsibilities when you vote in your domestic elections.


All of this is really easy to find out. It leads me to wonder why you feel the EU is undemocratic. It frustrates me to have to make this statement as it should be common knowledge to European citizens.

---

Kolch - Crunching for the BOINC@Australia team since July 2004.
Search for your own intelligence...

Seriously for those that don't know (and you guys living in EU member states bloody well should know) the legislative parts of the EU are made up of the European Parliament and the Council of the European Union.

Who appoints these political cronnies you ask? Very good question. As the answer is: YOU!

Since 1979 the European Parliament has held direct elections every 5 years, with the last elections held in 2004 and the next elections due to be held in 2009. If you don't remember voting in the 2004 election you should ask why this is so.

The Council of the European Union on the other hand is a little different. This council is made up of a minister of each member state. For general Council meetings the ministers will be the Foreign Affairs ministers. If the council is meeting for discussion of agriculture issues the council will be comprised of the Ministers for Agriculture of each member state. Thus you should consider these responsibilities when you vote in your domestic elections.


All of this is really easy to find out. It leads me to wonder why you feel the EU is undemocratic. It frustrates me to have to make this statement as it should be common knowledge to European citizens.

I think this is OT but one last time.

You are wrong.

The European Parliament is not the law making body of the EU. Its mainly consultative. It cannot hold the executive ie the commission, to account. You forgot the commission in your explanation. It is the power body of the EU and it drafts all directives, decisions and regulations. It makes policy. It decides what to do and how it should be done. The Parliament is "consulted" on some matters but no where near all it usually ignored anyway as its role is guidance only. All legislation is then passed to the council of Ministers who represent Governments but not Parliaments. They approve the legislation and then direct national parliaments to approve on pain of huge fines for failing to do so. Members of the EU Parliament are toothless. The commission is appointed by governments and we cannot elect them - they are the main source of all change and policy in the EU. No one can hold them to account. The ministers are chosen by the Prime Minister. We are not able to choose our prime minister as he chosen by his party.

So.....a political party which you have to pay to be a member of chooses a leader who chooses ministers to represent him in the EU council. Already chosen by the prime minister are commissioners who make policy. The people elect MPs who have no real influence and no one is accountable to. Our Parliament gets told what to do and like an obedient dog it does as its told. We have no influence on this whatsoever as the MPs we elect to our Parliament are only allowed in law to do as the EU has directed them to do.

See the point?

That's why there is no democracy!

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I think this is OT but one last time.

It is the topic becuase you are calling for a referendum to reject what you see as undemocratic process. However, I disagree with that view.

You are wrong.

Not one of the stated facts regarding the legislative bodies in my last post was wrong. The European Parliament is directly elected and the Council is appointed from members of the national governments, who are all similarly directly elected.

The European Parliament is not the law making body of the EU. Its mainly consultative. It cannot hold the executive ie the commission, to account.

Yes, it can. More importantly; it has. Perhaps you can Google for more information regarding the resignation of the Santer-Commission.

You forgot the commission in your explanation. It is the power body of the EU and it drafts all directives, decisions and regulations. It makes policy. It decides what to do and how it should be done.

I admit that I omitted mention of the executive, the Commission. It is true that the Commission is not elected, however it remains accountable to elected bodies (See Santer-Commission resignation and also the Buttiglione affair.

The Parliament is "consulted" on some matters but no where near all it usually ignored anyway as its role is guidance only.

If this is the case then it is a failure of the MEPs rather than a failure of the system.

All legislation is then passed to the council of Ministers who represent Governments but not Parliaments. They approve the legislation and then direct national parliaments to approve on pain of huge fines for failing to do so. Members of the EU Parliament are toothless. The commission is appointed by governments and we cannot elect them - they are the main source of all change and policy in the EU. No one can hold them to account. The ministers are chosen by the Prime Minister. We are not able to choose our prime minister as he chosen by his party.

To complain that the council is representative of Governments but not Parliaments is like crying because you voted for the losing party in an eletion. In national Parliament, what part of the Executive is made up by the Opposition? None.

So.....a political party which you have to pay to be a member of chooses a leader who chooses ministers to represent him in the EU council. Already chosen by the prime minister are commissioners who make policy. The people elect MPs who have no real influence and no one is accountable to. Our Parliament gets told what to do and like an obedient dog it does as its told. We have no influence on this whatsoever as the MPs we elect to our Parliament are only allowed in law to do as the EU has directed them to do.

You have a vote in national elections and European elections. Both of these democratically elected bodies have the power to effect change in EU policy.

See the point?

That's why there is no democracy!

If your point is that the system fails democratically then no I don't see it.

If your point is that the EU benefits countries like Hungary more than the UK then I am certain it does. Smaller economies are going to be propped up by the most powerful economies. The point is meant to be that by working together all members can grow over the long term.

Anyhow, I feel like this is two deaf men shouting at one another.

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Kolch - Crunching for the BOINC@Australia team since July 2004.
Search for your own intelligence...