Where's the wreckage from the plane that hit the Pentagon and of flight 93?

How did they "Pull" WTC building 7?

If they "Pulled" bldg 7 then why not the others?

What's your brutal interest in shutting this thread down? Motive?

You probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Just fire and forget right? Jack@ss! Watch the movie and STFU. Address the points and maybe, just maybe... someone will listen to your no-load, dip-dunk, big watch-tiny pecker, opinions.

Being an e-thug is no way to live, lol.

Quote your sources and stop attacking people who may not know, but want too.


Carry on, Sur.


;)



.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Sorry that the topic is getting a bit out of hand, Mr. Gray.
I have to admit that I did not even have the time to watch the film yet since work keeps me terribly busy (darn employees :p). But I promise to do so, so I can finally comment really on the topic :)

BTW, catering to minorities and the poor is NEVER what this country was about....

BrainSmashR, I am talking about the average guy, the majority.
If you don't watch it you'll work for even lesser wages and give away your freedom just because the "think - tanks" are quite smart when it comes to use fear as method of suppression. They also use the "if you don't ... then you are no good american!" - therefore 9-11 was the ideal opportunity to cut down civil rights and start "big brothering".

Btw. I, too, fear radical muslims. But the only way to fight them is to improve the standard of living in the region. If people have something to loose and are satisfied they will no longer support terrorists. So you need to help them in your own interest. And - to be honest - if any country would occupy the US or deal with the US the way f.e. Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan are dealt with right now I am sure people would use the tools they have to fight the oppressors.

Things like the 9-11 can afaik not be justified by the Koran and those terrorists and suicide bombers await hell and not heaven.
Still they are told the opposite.

Thanks for the update, BTW, I'd rather give my entire paycheck to support the war effort and the soldiers who continue to VOLUNTEER to defend my freedom than one dime to an unemployed parasite leeching off the system.

You look young enough...Put your money where your mouth is and Volunteer. I just got off the phone with a young lady that is there and she wants everyone to call their senators and tell them to bring the soldiers home and that they have NO CLEAR mission and that their IED sniffers don't work!

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Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

The difference, of course being, that the President and members of congress are elected officials and are performing the duties the American populace asked them to perform.

Running the US into debts, fighting a war vs terror in such a dilettantish way that terrorism is spreading instead of vanishing and thousands of soldies and hundreds of thousands civilians have died...

You should ask yourself (because your taxmoney is paying the bill): are they really?

• Found: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium

• Found: 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons

• Found: Roadside bomb loaded with sarin gas

• Found: 1,000 radioactive materials--ideal for radioactive dirty bombs

• Found: 17 chemical warheads--some containing cyclosarin, a nerve agent five times more powerful than sarin

Interesting, do you have some links? Afaik Powell (and he was pretty pissed to have to "exaggerate" stuff) was talking about a country ready to use weapons of MD, posing a real threat and not about a country with some chemical and nuclear waste from former projects, rotting and not useable.

That's why we're fighting a war on Terror and not just a war in Iraq....of course you couldn't deny the WMD's without this excuse either.

Looks like you are loosing it. Should make sure that you get people with a working strategy for your (tax)bucks.

It is, you're just another foreign sack of crap who thinks his opinion matters. For instance, yo either do not understand this is an Executive Privilege exercised by every President this country has ever had, or you intentionally attempted to shed a negative light on President Bush for your own selfish motives.

There's a reason Americans don't care what foreigners think.....and let's be realistic......what are you going to do about it anyway? Hijack a plane and murder some civilians like your Muslim butt buddies?

Nope. I am just going on with my daily life, running my own business, hiring more employees, playing with my son and working on my 2nd child, and caring about you or the US as much as you do for Europe and me. And my opinion matters as much as anyone elses opinion - including yours.

I don't expect you to get that your gouvernment is spitting in your face. And I don't really care. It's your taxdollars wasted. It's your freedom taken and your country ruined. If the US would just be on another planet I would not care at all, just sad that if terrorists gain B weapons we are all in the same boat.

Yeah, as a state employee, guess which category I fit into, and as a non-American guess how insignificant your ill-informed opinions and outright lies are outside of Berkeley?

Don't know - depends on the question if you are wasting taxpayer money deliberately or profit from taking your fellow countrymen for a fool. Anyways, maybe your attitude comes from the fact that it's not your dollars you are spending and that you are "part of the state" so cutdown of civil rights does not affect you. What's your job exactly, btw?

The difference, of course being, that the President and members of congress are elected officials and are performing the duties the American populace asked them to perform.

*destroy weapons of MD - oh wait, there were none (and they knew it)

• Found: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium

• Found: 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons

• Found: Roadside bomb loaded with sarin gas

• Found: 1,000 radioactive materials--ideal for radioactive dirty bombs

• Found: 17 chemical warheads--some containing cyclosarin, a nerve agent five times more powerful than sarin
[quote]

You know I would also like to see your links? Lets see some facts now that you made this statement.

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Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

Too Funny...

"However, I was surprised Miniter mentioned that WMD’s had actually been found in Iraq, and had largely gone unreported. In fact, he is quite incorrect, and is (hopefully unintentionally) being quite misleading. Since I know a bit about this, I thought I’d clear this up for Mr. Miniter, and anyone reading this who would be otherwise quite misinformed.

Miniter claims that in Iraq we:

- Found: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium
- Found: 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons
- Found: Roadside bomb loaded with sarin gas
- Found: 1,000 radioactive materials–ideal for radioactive dirty bombs

The real story

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Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

About the "chemical weapons":

These were just a bunch of different chemicals that some scientists in Japan said "when combined, they can be harmful". That doesn’t prove anything. There are a lot of items in the U.S. that you can buy, combine, make into a bomb or deadly agent, etc.

I can concur.
Some years ago, after a discussion about the need of having water supplies secured, a friend of mine showed me a copy of his dissertation in Toxicology which he made in the 80's, proving that it's possible to kill an entire town by using simple stuff everyone can buy in Grocery stores, Do-It-Yourself stores and other shops: he named several different harmless materials, which, solved in water and mixed in the right combination, would produce a poison within a few hours he claimed to be "LD100 50MG/L", being not detectable anymore after 24 hrs...

Don't know what kind of poison this may have been but it sounded evil. But anyway: With the right knowledge and intention, each town in each country has WMD -- I wonder that the terrorists haven't used them yet.

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Account frozen...

Some years ago, after a discussion about the need of having water supplies secured, a friend of mine showed me a copy of his dissertation in Toxicology which he made in the 80's, proving that it's possible to kill an entire town by using simple stuff everyone can buy in Grocery stores, Do-It-Yourself stores and other shops: he named several different harmless materials, which, solved in water and mixed in the right combination, would produce a poison within a few hours he claimed to be "LD100 50MG/L", being not detectable anymore after 24 hrs...

Don't know what kind of poison this may have been but it sounded evil. But anyway: With the right knowledge and intention, each town in each country has WMD -- I wonder that the terrorists haven't used them yet.

Most people have no idea just how dangerous stuff you can buy just about anywhere actually is. Most of those that DO know (at least in the USA) have no desire to create mayhem and kill people. But it does happen. I forget where it was, but about a year ago I read a story about an attack on an unpopular business. Luckily, nobody was killed because the timer malfunctioned and it didn't go off until everyone had left for the evening. A very popular laundry chemical, when mixed with any one of a large variety of other chemicals, will produce chlorine gas. Well, it was the middle of the night instead of the middle of the day, but that business got pumped full of it. So, yes, it does happen here.

And that is just one of the simplest 'chemical' weapons to improvise. With a little more creativity and knowledge of chemistry, you can make all sorts of things out of household chemicals. Even Sarin nerve gas. And the list of explosives you can make out of common, easily available things is even longer.

Poisons such as that your friend mentioned are a bit tougher, but not markedly so. The restraint on these poison's use in terrorist attacks is their delivery mechanism. As you mentioned, the 'water supply' is an often theorized-about delivery mechanism. However, due to the size of most 'water reservoirs', it is EXTREMELY difficult to get a lethal dose into a glass of tap water at someone's faucet. The very huge amount of water in the reservoir would dilute things well below the toxic dose unless you dumped a very large amount into the reservoir, and it would be very difficult indeed to get enough household chemicals to make this much.

However, if all you want to do is induce terror and break down the civil order, its much easier. A few years ago, the City of Dallas went through something like this, though it was accidental and not terrorism. A tanker truck carrying an industrial solvent / gasoline additive (MTBE) wrecked, and its load spilled into a river. The spill went downstream a good number of miles and into a lake that Dallas uses for part of its water supply. Water contaminated with MTBE stinks and tastes positively wretched at VERY LOW levels of contamination. While it is not lethal at this dose, people won't drink it, plus there is some cancer risk because it is a carcinogen. Dallas had to shut off supply from this lake for over a year until the lake water had cleared, since it is not practical to treat the water to remove MTBE in anything remotely near this volume of water. Now, this was just an accident, but it does suggest that a planned terrorist operation could take out all of a city's water supply. It wouldn't kill anyone, but a city of more than 1 million people will have a VERY messy situtation indeed if ALL of the public water supply has to get turned off.

In short, I wouldn't worry too much about large scale terrorist operations using things made from household chemicals, although attacks aimed at one (or a small group of people) are certainly possible. But then with these sorts of attacks, there is much more danger from other methods (guns, knives, etc) than with bleach-bombs. However, the public infrastructure does remain in danger if 'terrorists' do manage to get ahold of large amounts of higher quality stuff (industrial chemicals, etc).

Too Funny...

"However, I was surprised Miniter mentioned that WMD’s had actually been found in Iraq, and had largely gone unreported. In fact, he is quite incorrect, and is (hopefully unintentionally) being quite misleading. Since I know a bit about this, I thought I’d clear this up for Mr. Miniter, and anyone reading this who would be otherwise quite misinformed.

Miniter claims that in Iraq we:

- Found: 1.77 metric tons of enriched uranium
- Found: 1,500 gallons of chemical weapons
- Found: Roadside bomb loaded with sarin gas
- Found: 1,000 radioactive materials–ideal for radioactive dirty bombs

The real story

Interesting to read that. Any counter claims?

---

Never surrender and never give up. In the darkest hour there is always hope.

Some years ago, after a discussion about the need of having water supplies secured, a friend of mine showed me a copy of his dissertation in Toxicology which he made in the 80's, proving that it's possible to kill an entire town by using simple stuff everyone can buy in Grocery stores, Do-It-Yourself stores and other shops: he named several different harmless materials, which, solved in water and mixed in the right combination, would produce a poison within a few hours he claimed to be "LD100 50MG/L", being not detectable anymore after 24 hrs...

Don't know what kind of poison this may have been but it sounded evil. But anyway: With the right knowledge and intention, each town in each country has WMD -- I wonder that the terrorists haven't used them yet.

Most people have no idea just how dangerous stuff you can buy just about anywhere actually is. Most of those that DO know (at least in the USA) have no desire to create mayhem and kill people. But it does happen. I forget where it was, but about a year ago I read a story about an attack on an unpopular business. Luckily, nobody was killed because the timer malfunctioned and it didn't go off until everyone had left for the evening. A very popular laundry chemical, when mixed with any one of a large variety of other chemicals, will produce chlorine gas. Well, it was the middle of the night instead of the middle of the day, but that business got pumped full of it. So, yes, it does happen here.

And that is just one of the simplest 'chemical' weapons to improvise. With a little more creativity and knowledge of chemistry, you can make all sorts of things out of household chemicals. Even Sarin nerve gas. And the list of explosives you can make out of common, easily available things is even longer.

Poisons such as that your friend mentioned are a bit tougher, but not markedly so. The restraint on these poison's use in terrorist attacks is their delivery mechanism. As you mentioned, the 'water supply' is an often theorized-about delivery mechanism. However, due to the size of most 'water reservoirs', it is EXTREMELY difficult to get a lethal dose into a glass of tap water at someone's faucet. The very huge amount of water in the reservoir would dilute things well below the toxic dose unless you dumped a very large amount into the reservoir, and it would be very difficult indeed to get enough household chemicals to make this much.

However, if all you want to do is induce terror and break down the civil order, its much easier. A few years ago, the City of Dallas went through something like this, though it was accidental and not terrorism. A tanker truck carrying an industrial solvent / gasoline additive (MTBE) wrecked, and its load spilled into a river. The spill went downstream a good number of miles and into a lake that Dallas uses for part of its water supply. Water contaminated with MTBE stinks and tastes positively wretched at VERY LOW levels of contamination. While it is not lethal at this dose, people won't drink it, plus there is some cancer risk because it is a carcinogen. Dallas had to shut off supply from this lake for over a year until the lake water had cleared, since it is not practical to treat the water to remove MTBE in anything remotely near this volume of water. Now, this was just an accident, but it does suggest that a planned terrorist operation could take out all of a city's water supply. It wouldn't kill anyone, but a city of more than 1 million people will have a VERY messy situtation indeed if ALL of the public water supply has to get turned off.

In short, I wouldn't worry too much about large scale terrorist operations using things made from household chemicals, although attacks aimed at one (or a small group of people) are certainly possible. But then with these sorts of attacks, there is much more danger from other methods (guns, knives, etc) than with bleach-bombs. However, the public infrastructure does remain in danger if 'terrorists' do manage to get ahold of large amounts of higher quality stuff (industrial chemicals, etc).

I studied both chemistry and physics at high school and from that I learned enough that if I wanted to I could make 'chemical weapons' or 'conventional weapons' and use them effectively. Perhaps not well enough to destroy an entire city or bring a building down. But I could 'terrorize' my neighbourhood or perhaps destroy the unit block I live in (with everyone there). And this can be done with high school level knowledge, the Internet for help and commonly used and freely purchased items.

Not a big act, but it would cause panic. That would be the most powerful part of the attack. Not that I would do it. Knowledge is a double-edged sword. It can be used for both good and bad. I stay on the light side.

And I heard a story several years ago that someone in Australia was arrested for trying to build a nuclear reactor in their backyard. Not that they reckoned it would work, but it was being made with common items/parts. However, this story could just be an urban myth, but it does make you think.

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Never surrender and never give up. In the darkest hour there is always hope.

Thanks, hiamps - very interesting article.

What worries me are biological weapons and something going deadly wrong.

Did finally watch the film and it's indeed very disturbing. Even if it would be true it's so hard to believe, that you automatically say to yourself "This is crazy, it can't be true!" - which could lead to the conclusion that the bigger the lie you tell the bigger the chance people will actually believe it. What a sick world.

But the worst is that even if it would be true and the gouvernment was involved it will never be revealed and no one will have to pay - simply because no one could afford the amount of trust in the democratic system destroyed and the havoc caused if people would find out. Not even a democrat gouvernment could afford it and IMHO there is not that a big difference between politicans anyways since IMHO nowadays the motivation comes from a good deal to fill friends/lobby purses (they will for sure be grateful later) and not to serve your country.

Democracy needs leaders that care for their country and citizens - but this goes contrary to what is needed in politics - ellbow and lying. I tried it out when I was 18, but found out that politics is nothing for me.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

-Joseph Göbbels

Rowe Arrested Despite Honorable Discharge Papers

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Thursday, July 26, 2007

Korey Rowe, the Afghanistan and Iraq combat veteran and producer of Loose Change, who was arrested on Monday under charges of desertion, presented his honorable discharge papers to the arresting officers and yet was grabbed after a sophisticated operation where police staked out his house from the woods and cut his phone lines.

Thnx for the update, I missed this one.

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Hm, first Libby, now Karl Rove. If laws can't be applied leaders get tempted to do what they want because they have nothing to fear. This combined with control of TV and newspapers is a dangerous mix - seems like it's causing the people who pay the bill and are betrayed not even noticing.

>snipped load of irrational drivel< ...Address the points and maybe, just maybe... someone will listen to your >more idiotic crap< opinions.

Does any one else notice how ironic it is that MrGray would like someone else to address the points made?

Given your "posts" so far, you don't hardly seem interested at all in opposing viewpoints, you just seem interested in furthering silly ideologies.

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

The technique is called "leading."

My social studies teacher in college would do the same thing to get everyones ideas out in the open. Then she would give us a little data on the subject and watch opinions move in that direction. Then she'd give a little data from the other side of the situation and watch opinions sway in the other direction.

Some topics covered:

Food for Oil UN program
NAFTA
Prejudice jokes - Do they help or hurt.

Took me a week too figure out what she was up to and I was frustrated during that week. In hind sight I thank her for what she did because it taught us an important lesson. Know what it was?

Sadly, I was still too young to understand or see the full pictures. Only recently have I become interested in any of this at all, and even now, I hate talking about these subjects because, in my opinion, they are prema facia evidence of the state of our nation and the world. It's an ugly picture we've drawn and an unglier reality we leave to our children.

Were you really interested in my thoughts, anyhow? I think you've all done a great job of illustrating my points for me. If it works, don't fix it.


Thanks Sue!!! ( My social science teacher. Funny to have a lawyer teacher named, Sue. LOL.)
.

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

WASHINGTON — In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

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NORAD had drills of jets as weapons

WASHINGTON — In the two years before the Sept. 11 attacks, the North American Aerospace Defense Command conducted exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties.

Yeah, duh. That's been thought of for years. Don't confuse political rhetoric with reality--it's not.

The question is whether one knows it's happening or not, and whether and who wants to order F-16's to shoot down fully loaded passenger planes, and frankly, whether it's a good idea to splash two of them down onto Manhattan at rush hour. If you're wrong, your life is over. And no matter what you do, you're wrong. Even how it turned out, you're wrong. You simply cannot win, but inaction doesn't put those orders onto your head.

It probably made more sense to let them crash almost anywhere, even into a targeted building, to contain the wreckage and fatalities, than it would to send thousands of tons of superheated shrapnel and flaming fuel onto the heads of commuters. Rest assured, no one in their right mind, in any gov't, is going to publicly discuss that sort of cold-hearted death calculus. That's why they use bromides like "unimaginable."

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Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

More extraordinary is that NORAD was...

Well, watch the vid and see...

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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

One has to wonder just how stu.......

I'm sure using aircraft as a weapon has been around as long as.....ohhh, the Hindenburg maybe.

I mean when does tons of tons of flaming metal falling out of the sky NOT look like an extremely effective way to kill a bunch of people (or a bunch of Dinosaurs)?

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It is true that aircraft have been used as weapons long before (e.g. WWII), but there were no "hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties" before 9/11, and that's what is being talked about, if I understand correctly.

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It is true that aircraft have been used as weapons long before (e.g. WWII), but there were no "hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties" before 9/11, and that's what is being talked about, if I understand correctly.

Well it's gonna be pretty hard to prove that was never attempted, prior to 9/11, on a global scale.

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