Not much time for more talk promoting more division, guys.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786048453686176230&q=en




.

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

When have you started to use the majestic plural?

Multiple accounts can make one plural, but not majestic... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

Sorta reminds me of your post history... ;)

We already know ...

When have you started to use the majestic plural? IMHO only because Jeffrey, like some others including me, has another political opinion (less right-wing) than you he doesn't have to be less competent. Well, at least not necessarily.

I refer to "we" as in those intelligent enough to know that posting my personal opinion is in no way, shape, or form an attempt at influencing the opinion of others.

I'm convinced that any system only based on honesty, righteousness and trust (if there were one) were a lot better than this home-made paranoia preached by some politicians all over the world who are paid by war mongers: weapon or war system producing companies which make their Billions from letting people kill other people.

Peace all over the world would be a disaster for very many companies: Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas, many others which are known for producing weapons and other stuff only used for fighting (or only own such companies)... Suddenly they had to concentrate only on civil products! What an amount of turn-over would vanish!
The day Peace all over the world were announced would be even worse than the famous Black Friday! Since this has to be avoided, propaganda machine must run, fear and hate must be spread out, and nation must fight against nation -- that the blood money can flow into some "few" companies' bank accounts.

I'm not even sure how to respond to the notion that weapons technology exists because of propaganda rather than defense and resource gathering.

---

IMHO there is quite some danger in the concentration of control of mass media.
Real Democracy can only work if people have some interest in what is going on around them and do not blindly believe what they read or see on TV. When I was younger I was thinking a lot about a better democratic system, about leaders that care for the people and not only for their purse and so on. But there comes the point (especially if you run a company and have employees) when you realize that the majority simply does not care. That even if you try to improve things, help people and are incorrupt chances are high that you will loose vs an opponent who gives a .... about people and is corrupt - simply because he will have connections to drag you in the dirt (media power) and people are not "adult" enough to look behind the scenes.

Meanwhile I believe that the "Tittytainment"-approach is not all that wrong.
Problem is IMHO if leaders and the "Elite" blows it out of all proportions. Kind of what goes on in Russia and the US right now. In both countries personal freedom is cut down - in the US more subtle then in Russia, though. And fortunately it seems that in the US the gouvernment did push it too hard and people start to see behind the scenes since the truth can no longer be hidden due to the extreme desaster that occured. People started to get that there is a good chance that the fear of terror was just abused. That the war is just filling the purses of the lobby of the actual gouvernment. But will the actual gouvernment pay for the havoc they have caused once they are no longer in their positions? I doubt it and this is a problem. There needs to be a "motivation" to not push it too hard, to keep personal freedoms up and running and to serve their country and not just claiming to serve their country while happily filling their purses while people die.

If the "Elite" wants to continue to keep their power they do not only need clever and subtle propaganda and scientists developing strategies. They also need some rationality and less grief. Work has to pay out, people need to have their chances and freedom. In their own selfish interest they need to keep people satisfied to enjoy their wealth, even if it means paying the same taxrate their secretary does. Propaganda alone won't do the job as already Joseph Goebbels mentioned:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect

Sorta reminds me of your post history... ;)

We already know ...

When have you started to use the majestic plural? IMHO only because Jeffrey, like some others including me, has another political opinion (less right-wing) than you he doesn't have to be less competent. Well, at least not necessarily.

I refer to "we" as in those intelligent enough to know that posting my personal opinion is in no way, shape, or form an attempt at influencing the opinion of others.

I'm convinced that any system only based on honesty, righteousness and trust (if there were one) were a lot better than this home-made paranoia preached by some politicians all over the world who are paid by war mongers: weapon or war system producing companies which make their Billions from letting people kill other people.

Peace all over the world would be a disaster for very many companies: Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas, many others which are known for producing weapons and other stuff only used for fighting (or only own such companies)... Suddenly they had to concentrate only on civil products! What an amount of turn-over would vanish!
The day Peace all over the world were announced would be even worse than the famous Black Friday! Since this has to be avoided, propaganda machine must run, fear and hate must be spread out, and nation must fight against nation -- that the blood money can flow into some "few" companies' bank accounts.

I'm not even sure how to respond to the notion that weapons technology exists because of propaganda rather than defense and resource gathering.

No. They produce reasons to sell their weapons, then they build & develop them. Then the other way around. Selling weapons and weapon systems on an international or multinational level is like printing your own money. Just make people to start a war or a civil war, and you have a steady growing turn-over selling them the weapons they want to kill their new enemies.

---

Account frozen...

No. They produce reasons to sell their weapons, then they build & develop them. Then the other way around. Selling weapons and weapon systems on an international or multinational level is like printing your own money. Just make people to start a war or a civil war, and you have a steady growing turn-over selling them the weapons they want to kill their new enemies.

There ARE people in the world who act out because of their OWN aggression regardless of how omnipotent you think the President is and what ever psychic mind control powers you think he possesses.

---

No. They produce reasons to sell their weapons, then they build & develop them. Then the other way around. Selling weapons and weapon systems on an international or multinational level is like printing your own money. Just make people to start a war or a civil war, and you have a steady growing turn-over selling them the weapons they want to kill their new enemies.

Pffft, this is, as usual, absurd on it's face. Maybe some tin can producers of Kalashnikov's would like this power, but they're just stamping out guns.

The companies you mention "Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas," (two of which don't exist any longer, which doesn't advance your credibility on matters weapon systems related) make weapons systems that costs millions upon millions of dollars. Rare indeed is the country that is ordering 50 M1A2 Abrams tanks and the related infrastructure to use and maintain them. Or F-15s at what, $35 million each? Assuming that the U.S. approves such sales.

"That's a good man. I was just thinking of a flaming rum punch. No, no, the war's not hot enough for that. Not nearly hot enough...Wait a minute...wait a minute...an F-15 my good man! Heavy on the Sidewinders and light on the armor. Off with you, me lad, and be lively!"

---

Cordially,
Rush

elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com
Remove the obvious...

I can't stress enough how important it is to keep up an open mind.
Elsewise the future will look Big Brother like and the average guy will pay the price. The one who works countless hours all day, the one who is a patriot, loves his country and is willing to sacrifice a lot for it, the one who does not deserve it and does not expect it until it's too late.

And as a sidenote: keep in mind that it might help the ego to try to "win" discussions over the internet, but in the end it does not matter anyways. What matters is what's going on in RL and there discussions in the web can be helpful, can show you another point of view, can open your eyes.

If you take a look at film documents from the Nazi era you might think "goddamn it how could have people been so stupid to believe all that crap?" - maybe in 50 years people will think the same about us. I just hope we won't go through similar nightmares like 70 years ago. But I guess it's just human that good times are not meant to last.

I can't stress enough how important it is to keep up an open mind.
Elsewise the future will look Big Brother like and the average guy will pay the price. The one who works countless hours all day, the one who is a patriot, loves his country and is willing to sacrifice a lot for it, the one who does not deserve it and does not expect it until it's too late.

And as a sidenote: keep in mind that it might help the ego to try to "win" discussions over the internet, but in the end it does not matter anyways. What matters is what's going on in RL and there discussions in the web can be helpful, can show you another point of view, can open your eyes.

If you take a look at film documents from the Nazi era you might think "goddamn it how could have people been so stupid to believe all that crap?" - maybe in 50 years people will think the same about us. I just hope we won't go through similar nightmares like 70 years ago. But I guess it's just human that good times are not meant to last.

The number of Germans who supported genocide in WW2 is on par with the number of Americans who think we perpetrated 9/11 against ourselves and they deserve nothing less than to be treated like the social deviants they are.

---

If you take a look at film documents from the Nazi era you might think "goddamn it how could have people been so stupid to believe all that crap?" - maybe in 50 years people will think the same about us. I just hope we won't go through similar nightmares like 70 years ago. But I guess it's just human that good times are not meant to last.

While I think that things are progressing in a bad direction, I don't think conditions in America will actually end up resembling those conditions that existed around 70 years ago. That's just my opinion. But I won't say that it's not possible.

---

BrainSmashR, I think you underestimate the power of the masses.
Take for example watching sports at home or in a stadium - completely different experiences.

Being a German myself I belive that the majority of the Germans did in fact rather close their eyes in fear. But there were for sure enough which were driven away by mass histery and did not think about the consequences. And there were also open supporters and profiteers of the Nazi regime.

Have been to Auschwitz and it's sad to see what humans are capable of.
Even more sad that even today things like Bosnia and Rwanda happen :(

A/C, you are for sure at least in some way right since today are different times. For example we hopefully will never ever see cruelties similar to the ones in the era of inquisition again. We have evolved, but with this evolvement come also different values. So you are probably right, that something similar will not happen - today it's more subtle. Nonetheless it bears incredible risks like terrorists gaining ABC weapons or Big Brother like gouvernments all over the world or religious and ethical tensions leading to a WWIII.

All in all we would be screwed anyways.

Propaganda:
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect



It's quite easy to achieve, and may in fact be done on a subconscious level....take just the subject and verb from one sentence each of the last 3 posts by MrGray:

Fox scripting
O'reilly insulting
he lied

What opinion do you have of Fox News based on those 3 simple phrases?

Not a good one. But I formed my negative opinion about Fox News a long time ago.

---

BrainSmashR, I think you underestimate the power of the masses.
Take for example watching sports at home or in a stadium - completely different experiences.

Being a German myself I belive that the majority of the Germans did in fact rather close their eyes in fear. But there were for sure enough which were driven away by mass histery and did not think about the consequences. And there were also open supporters and profiteers of the Nazi regime.

Closing one's eyes in fear is considerably different that condoning genocide. Furthermore, most Americans ARE NOT hiding in fear nor are they turning a blind eye and we HAVE considered the consequences of our NON actions the day after 9/11.

Have been to Auschwitz and it's sad to see what humans are capable of.
Even more sad that even today things like Bosnia and Rwanda happen :(

And even still sadder to think that those of us on the defensive are compared to Nazi's by those who are "supposed" to know the difference.

---

Propaganda:
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect



It's quite easy to achieve, and may in fact be done on a subconscious level....take just the subject and verb from one sentence each of the last 3 posts by MrGray:

Fox scripting
O'reilly insulting
he lied

What opinion do you have of Fox News based on those 3 simple phrases?

Not a good one. But I formed my negative opinion about Fox News a long time ago.

Let me guess....Jon Stewart and the Daily Show is where you get your news, right?

---

And even still sadder to think that those of us on the defensive are compared to Nazi's by those who are "supposed" to know the difference.

Nah, it's just that we are probably more worried/sensitized or like it's said in Germany "Wehret den Anfängen!". You might find it hillarious, but there are parallels and it's neccessary to talk about it to prevent worse. What's going on in Russia is a good example of what might happen in the long run and we both don't want this - at least I guess so.

Propaganda:
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect



It's quite easy to achieve, and may in fact be done on a subconscious level....take just the subject and verb from one sentence each of the last 3 posts by MrGray:

Fox scripting
O'reilly insulting
he lied

What opinion do you have of Fox News based on those 3 simple phrases?

Not a good one. But I formed my negative opinion about Fox News a long time ago.

Let me guess....Jon Stewart and the Daily Show is where you get your news, right?

No, I don't actually watch those shows. I may watch The Tonight Show or Conan from time to time but that's about it. I do get news from network TV but also from other sources as well.

---

On the topic of propaganda. History can be used as propaganda.

Some of you may have seen my post this in another thread but I'll repeat it here. Think about it (regardless of where I got it from).

"Justice is but the aggregate interests of the common good. History is nothing more than a record book written for the convenience of its author."

(Ruri). MB/MS Nadesico, Ep. 23 (as presented by the English subtitles).

The history you rely on may not be true, but rather designed for someone's agenda.

---

Never surrender and never give up. In the darkest hour there is always hope.

You might find it hillarious, but there are parallels and it's neccessary to talk about it to prevent worse. What's going on in Russia is a good example of what might happen in the long run and we both don't want this - at least I guess so.

Am no native english speaker, sorry for the mistake. Unfortunately I can't edit the posting any more so to clarify: please replace "You might find it hillarious" with "You might not yet see it that way".

Thanks and once more sorry for the faux pas,
-Mark

Your doing fine, MAC,

Don't worry about it!


;)

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wh7Tdzy5SE

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss