I'm sorry, MrGray,

But I guess that you're not getting the full picture, no matter how much time I patiently devote towards explaining it. I hope you will go through my posts one by one, and reason out the answers for yourself. It is better that way.

Just because other countries have made a horrible mistake is no reason why we should. If only you could see past the False God of Socialism that someone has apparently engraved on your forehead.

You're very intelligent, but I wish I had more faith that you and others like you would 'get it'.

I will admit to being puzzled, however, as to why you linked that audio clip of Ronald Reagan speaking out against Socialized Medicine. The only thing that clip did was make me suspicious that you are, in fact, arguing AGAINST socialized medicine/national health care. Do you care to enlighten me as to why you posted it?

Most of the links you have posted of late feature Mr. Moore. Moore's films are a perfect example of the subject of another thread here: Propaganda. These films are not unbiased inquiries into their various subjects. Instead, they are blatantly in support of the Lefty-Lib's Socialist political and economic Agenda.

Socialism, by its very nature, restricts Freedom. And to use a quote that some here have used against me:

Those who give up a little Freedom to gain a little Security deserve neither and will lose both.

At this time, I am living barely above the poverty level due primarily to a series of health problems that some around here know of (and of course, I am among the uninsured). You may be curious as to how I could possibly oppose something (Socialized Medicine and the rest of the Socialist Welfare State). I realize that these things would be of short-term benefit to me, but I oppose them because I know them to be wrong. I am not about to put my short-term benefit and gain above the long term future interests of the Country.

Don't worry, MK,

I'll have more time soon and will not let your work go to waste. Your money is safe and should always be safe. I appreciate your work in all threads and the entire forum at large. Your efforts will not go unappreciated or unexamined! I've learned many things from you and everyone who has participated in this section of the forums and beyond.

The Regean record shows how and why we don't have socialized medicine today. (Well, one reason anyhow.) Propaganda. Have you seen SiCKO, yet? I forget.

I am not about to put my short-term benefit and gain above the long term future interests of the Country.

Your not the only one feeling hopeless about this. At least your thinking and feeling. Those are the prereq's.



.

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Don't worry, MK,

I'll have more time soon and will not let your work go to waste. Your money is safe and should always be safe. I appreciate your work in all threads and the entire forum at large. Your efforts will not go unappreciated or unexamined! I've learned many things from you and everyone who has participated in this section of the forums and beyond.

The Regean record shows how and why we don't have socialized medicine today. (Well, one reason anyhow.) Propaganda. Have you seen SiCKO, yet? I forget.

I am not about to put my short-term benefit and gain above the long term future interests of the Country.

Your not the only one feeling hopeless about this. At least your thinking and feeling. Those are the prereq's.

I don't NEED to see Sicko. I am very well aware of the problems in the health care industry. Intimately familiar with the problems, from both the perspective of the patient, and as a worker in the health care industry (brief tenure at that, I soon quit because of some of the problems and went on to do other things). I have been aware since the 70's, and I have been vocal about them for about 20 years.

I am aware of the problems. I have seen them get worse and worse as time went on. I don't need Moore's flim-flam-film to make me aware of the problems. The solutions Moore advocates (that I have seen him advocate, at least) are bogus, wrong, evil, and destructive.

As to Sicko's scene at Gitmo... I don't need that film to know about the medical treatment that many detainees there receive. My wife's brother's wife is in a US Navy Medical unit and is stationed there. It is part of her job to help PROVIDE the medical care to the detainees. I heard about it quite some time ago. As to the medical care in Cuba, well it is one of their national priorities. Cubans tend towards poverty. The Cuban economy can not generate enough money to pay all its workers enough. Many Cubans have trouble getting enough to eat. But... They DO have reasonable Socialized health care, but at what a cost to the rest of their economy. They get good health care as they starve.

This is one example of why I say Socialized Medicine is BAD. Yes, we could provide Socialized Medicine to all US Citizens and Residents, by a combination of raising taxes and cutting spending in many other areas. However, just because we could does not mean we should. Doing so would wreck our economy. For far too many of us, it would mean that we could stay healthy as we starved... Just like the Cubans.

You can also come up with other examples of nations that have Socialized Medicine, but aren't quite as bad off as Cuba. Nations such as Canada and the UK. Well, two reasons why they might be getting away with it for now.

1. The USA is subsidizing much of those two nations' expenses, especially in areas of Defense. They don't have to have a large military because WE do, and guarantee their safety.

2. Their health care apparatus benefits greatly from ours. The US health care system provides a great deal of innovation in medical technology and new pharmaceutical development.

Remember my earlier example of Pfizer. They sell a LOT to other nations (many of them quite underdeveloped), often at much lower prices. The higher prices we pay in the USA helps to send prescription drugs to many other nations at a far lower cost. Even the US Government gets in on this act, encouraging Big Pharma to do this through tax breaks, and in some cases buying the medication itself and sending it directly as foreign aid.

If other nations with seemingly successful (for now) Socialized Medicine programs such as Canada and the UK ever had to 'go it alone' without ANY assistance of ANY sort from the USA, they would have a LOT tougher time of it. They would have to repurpose a lot of their tax revenue to other things like building up their national defense infrastructure, and they would likely see far less improvement in medicine than they do now.

But even now, these nations are beginning to feel the pinch as worldwide medical costs continue to rise. They are facing three choices.

1. Increase Taxes.
2. Decrease services provided. And
3. Increase various copayments and fees.

From what I have seen, they have done about all the #1 they can, and they are unwilling to do #2. So, that leaves #3, and I recall a news article from not too long ago that reported that the UK had done just that.

The Worldwide Church of Socialized Medicine is beginning to crumble. Do you REALLY want the USA to join that church, go inside, and sit in one of the pews?

As to 'thinking and feeling'... In my opinion, people need a lot more of the first, and a lot less of the second. Far too often, the urge to help others that we feel sorry for gets in the way of reason, and we do things that at best could be termed 'unwise'.

You should see this movie.

1. The USA is subsidizing much of those two nations' expenses, especially in areas of Defense. They don't have to have a large military because WE do, and guarantee their safety.

2. Their health care apparatus benefits greatly from ours. The US health care system provides a great deal of innovation in medical technology and new pharmaceutical development.

Nice to know other countries come before our own citizens.

Maybe they do still like us a little.

World wide medical costs are a joke, thus the problems.

I wish I could feel less. Then again, we'd be pretty screwed if no one did.

I just can't turn my head away from anyone who is in need of medical attention because of something we've created and worship: Money

I feel like I'm trapped in a bad caveman, Geico commercial sometimes.




.

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

But even now, these nations are beginning to feel the pinch as worldwide medical costs continue to rise. They are facing three choices.

1. Increase Taxes.

for the rich ones, those with huge wealth and/or high incomes - that would help a lot. 1% of the Americans own 60% of the wealth, so they can and should be taxed. But they get enough gifts from the government in the way of tax repayments and subventions etc. Like: those who have a lot are given a lot, those who have nothing will be taken what they still have...

2. Decrease services provided.

not an option in my thinking.

And
3. Increase various copayments and fees.

Also not an option. At least not for the poorer part of the population. For those who can afford it (the wealthier part of society) - well, why not.

From what I have seen, they have done about all the #1 they can,

not even half of them what they could do -- in my opinion.

... and they are unwilling to do #2.

Of course.

... So, that leaves #3, and I recall a news article from not too long ago that reported that the UK had done just that.

But in the IMHO wrong way.

The Worldwide Church of Socialized Medicine is beginning to crumble. Do you REALLY want the USA to join that church, go inside, and sit in one of the pews?

As to 'thinking and feeling'... In my opinion, people need a lot more of the first, and a lot less of the second. Far too often, the urge to help others that we feel sorry for gets in the way of reason, and we do things that at best could be termed 'unwise'.

Is it wise to pour the money like rain? No.
IMHO medical treatment should be free (free of all costs and fees) for everyone except for the rich - while giving one group the same treatment like the other one.

---

Account frozen...

I think we all posted in here thinking it was the SiCKO thread.

Anyhow:


Michael Moore blasts Giuliani for leaving September 11th rescue workers in the dust:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AzmTe2_bRY

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

A Brief History of the USA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu_FkTCBHLo

3 mins 18 sec


Bowling for Columbine:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4803003242921117757&q=

1 hr 56 min 12 sec

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss

Cheney's neighbors topple him in protest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVTuTWe75yA

Dick Cheney's neighbors in Jackson Hole, Wyoming topple him in effigy at a protest calling for his impeachment. The protest was held in front of the gate to his home in Jackson Hole on August 11, 2007

---

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss