I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

I think it means that the world, as we know it, was created by what we see around us, life, evolution or whatever you call it, and we have been "tricked" into believing it was created by god.

NOTE: This is not necessary a belief or a following, just simply a point of view and summary of what I think it means.

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"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". Hebrews 11.3

I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible.

It means that God assembled the universe from substance that is beyond our reach... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

I think it means that the world, as we know it, was created by what we see around us, life, evolution or whatever you call it, and we have been "tricked" into believing it was created by god.

NOTE: This is not necessary a belief or a following, just simply a point of view and summary of what I think it means.

Well it says "not made out of what was visible" which is the complete opposite of "was created by what we see around us," so I am going to have to disagree with your interpretation, I am afraid.

The verse is a restatement of the opening verses of Genesis, emphasising the role of faith rather than mechanics in our understanding of such things. "God's command" here is "the Word" in Genesis - one of the Old Testament Names of Christ.

I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

I think it means that the world, as we know it, was created by what we see around us, life, evolution or whatever you call it, and we have been "tricked" into believing it was created by god.

NOTE: This is not necessary a belief or a following, just simply a point of view and summary of what I think it means.

From my understanding what could be meant with "what is seen was not made out of what was visible" is that it was an attempt to explain that the world around us was made (or: it developed - for the atheists among you ) out of stuff we cannot see with only the eyes (i.e. atoms and smaller stuff) and that you can understand this by faith even without having scientific knowledge.

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Account frozen...

I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3...................

"By Faith" = to believe in something with no seen or verifiable truth outside of ones own belief, body or mind..

"what is seen" = I assume this means I or you or anyone can see it - Has personal or social proof = knowable

"not made out of what was visible" = I can only assume means was made from those things we either have no personal proof of or was beyond our sight. Either beyond us, unknowable or hidden in some way.



Sounds a perfect logic to me.

* By Faith - Our Knowable Universe - Created From Unknown Things..


In other words we see the world but do not know from what it was created. In other words we need faith to know what was being refered to.

Sounds about the truth of our current science.. and to be honest how the hell could any of us ever know or see all parts of the universe in one moment.

It's a typical spiritual question. We as finite beings could never see or know the vastness of the whole universe. We can only have faith.


To me it's one of those statements that can only ever be fully understood if you 'believe' or have 'faith'.. and then at that moment would probably mean something very very different...



(I prefer to ask if: Goderator Or Bug - Can We Be Both - Who Ate My Thread?)

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I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

I think it means that the world, as we know it, was created by what we see around us, life, evolution or whatever you call it, and we have been "tricked" into believing it was created by god.

NOTE: This is not necessary a belief or a following, just simply a point of view and summary of what I think it means.

The fact that the various books that comprise the Bible can be interpreted in *numerous* ways is perhaps what allows it to still find an audience today. Unless we track down the gentlemen who wrote the actual text, we will never know what it truly "means". As a result, the book is almost impervious to our scrutiny. It almost doesn't matter if modern Christians have misinterpreted the text - what matters is that we are where we are. Whether or not it's "fair" is irrelevant. I don't think we can "convert" the faithful by trying to convince them their Biblical interpretations are flawed. This is where a lot of militant atheists make their mistakes. My personal interpretation of the extract:

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command

In other words: faith reveals to us that the Universe is God's creation

so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible

so your "world" is not merely a mundane extension of the natural environment, but the result of divine influence

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that would have worked if you hadn't stopped me

The fact that the various books that comprise the Bible can be interpreted in *numerous* ways

Not a fact, and definitely not true... Sure the books can be twisted by clever hypocrites who could no doubt find a single verse to support just about anything they lay claim too... But the books as a whole can not be interpreted in any manner other than the one intended... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

haha I knew somebody would attack my use of the dreaded word "fact"! ...

Sure the books can be twisted by clever hypocrites who could no doubt find a single verse to support just about anything

yeah, man! this is exactly my point! "clever hypocrites" (among others) can interpret the books in any manner they deem appropriate. I'm not saying they *should*, but that doesn't stop anybody from doing so.

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that would have worked if you hadn't stopped me

I have had this verse in my signature for a while now...and I was wondering what it means to you.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

I think it means that the world, as we know it, was created by what we see around us, life, evolution or whatever you call it, and we have been "tricked" into believing it was created by god.

NOTE: This is not necessary a belief or a following, just simply a point of view and summary of what I think it means.

Here is the King James version:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

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"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

King James! Oh man! that sounds like a "Babelfish" translation! ... like this:


Of faith we that the universe to the order of the God was formed, understand of manner which that he was not done is seen where of he was visible

haha awesome

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that would have worked if you hadn't stopped me

Hebrews 11:3 (Amplified Bible)

By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible.

;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

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Here is the King James version:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

That gives quite a different understanding.

If I was a hardline atheist (I'm not) I might suggest that through faith we would see that the "worlds" were made of (framed = made, put in place, structured within?) things that are not seen...

Given that was written so long ago and today we have a few more technolgies to explain things does that mean made from atoms, molecules, black holes, moments of entropy, stringy things., ect., ??

The 'worlds' (whatever that means) are made of invisible bits...


<Oooh - Spooky.. I just had a moth fly from behind my monitor.. I hope my world is not made up of hidden moths - or was that a revelation?>




(MoodyRaptor Or Punk - Gag That Punk?)

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That gives quite a different understanding.

Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the world was framed by the word of God; that from invisible things visible things might be made. (DRC)

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (KJV)

By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear. (RSV)

By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. (NAB)

By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible. (AMP)

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (NIV)

By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen. (NLT)

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. (NKJV)

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. (NASB)

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible. (CSB)


They all read the same to me... Other than, 'word choice'... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

That gives quite a different understanding.

Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the world was framed by the word of God; that from invisible things visible things might be made. (DRC)

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (KJV)

By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear. (RSV)

By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. (NAB)

By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible. (AMP)

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (NIV)

By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen. (NLT)

By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. (NKJV)

By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. (NASB)

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible. (CSB)


They all read the same to me... Other than, 'word choice'... ;)

It's similar, but not the same.

created, prepared, framed, formed, ordered - though they might be synonyms, they do have a slightly different meaning
to be visible, to appear, also do have slightly different meanings - by linguistics

But the question was not: What does it mean in general?, but: What does it mean to you?

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Account frozen...

You guys are waaaay over thinking this,

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

Clearly an early Dark Matter theory...;)

from the athiest girl with a C- in high school physics :)

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Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein

.

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Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein

It's similar, but not the same.

Well heck... I'm gonna become an Atheist now because I just don't really know for sure if God created, prepared, framed, formed, or ordered the universe, world, or worlds, to make them appear or become visible to us...

Then again... It's not really important to anyone other than the sceptic... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

That gives quite a different understanding.

Hebrews 11:3

SNIPED LOTS....

They all read the same to me... Other than, 'word choice'... ;)

Sorry for the big snip.

I didn't see the word 'choice' in any of those translations or interpretations you gave.

Not sure why Jason asked his question but for me it caught my eye.

I know I have choice even if every creature in this universe or god told me different... It may not be perfect choice but what the hey! Maybe it's god gift to me.. or maybe it's nature or just maybe it's my gift to myself...

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You guys are waaaay over thinking this,

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible". - Hebrews 11.3

Clearly an early Dark Matter theory...;)

from the athiest girl with a C- in high school physics :)

Hey you're a Kali Hindu :o)))

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Here is the King James version:

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

That gives quite a different understanding.

If I was a hardline atheist (I'm not) I might suggest that through faith we would see that the "worlds" were made of (framed = made, put in place, structured within?) things that are not seen...

Given that was written so long ago and today we have a few more technolgies to explain things does that mean made from atoms, molecules, black holes, moments of entropy, stringy things., ect., ??

The 'worlds' (whatever that means) are made of invisible bits...


<Oooh - Spooky.. I just had a moth fly from behind my monitor.. I hope my world is not made up of hidden moths - or was that a revelation?>




(MoodyRaptor Or Punk - Gag That Punk?)

My understanding of "faith" here is that it means the belief in a means (a substance) by which events can be made to happen. In Hebrews 1:1 "faith" is descibed as: "...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." And that the evidence is the belief that God can make things happen in the future. To me it sounds like something is being concealed.

When it says "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God", it means through our acceptance of his powers, we understand that he made the "worlds" as he wished. And when it says "...things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.", it means that the ground, sky, water, etc, were produced by particles.

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