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Message 560264 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 14:58:32 UTC - in response to Message 560223.  

Just one question though, are you aware that some of your writings come forward as a tad right wing?

Maybe, mostly because most here don't really understand them.

They aren't right or left, they're libertarian.
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Message 560288 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 15:37:16 UTC - in response to Message 560264.  

Just one question though, are you aware that some of your writings come forward as a tad right wing?

Maybe, mostly because most here don't really understand them.

They aren't right or left, they're libertarian.


From my point of view, they indeed are right-wing even though I understand them. It's just a matter of where you stand. Most libertarians are right-wing in my eyes.
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Message 560296 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 15:46:08 UTC - in response to Message 560264.  
Last modified: 5 May 2007, 15:47:03 UTC

Just one question though, are you aware that some of your writings come forward as a tad right wing?

Maybe, mostly because most here don't really understand them.

They aren't right or left, they're libertarian.


I was more thinking about you saying that people are left-wing:-)

On the other hand, I am from a country where our right-wing hawks would be considered left wing in the US, and our left-wingers aren't propagating hemp-growing and our homegrown religious fanatics are blowing up sausage-stands and our libertarians are advocating free sex and no clothes.

So thusly I surmise that you do not want to wear clothes around sausage-blowers and hemp-growers, but that you wish to be fully clothed around hawks (feathered or not)?
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Message 560297 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 15:48:52 UTC - in response to Message 560288.  

From my point of view, they indeed are right-wing even though I understand them. It's just a matter of where you stand. Most libertarians are right-wing in my eyes.

Libertarians aren't any more right than they are left. They would shut down corporate welfare just as fast as they would shut down individual welfare.
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Message 560298 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 15:50:36 UTC - in response to Message 560296.  

I was more thinking about you saying that people are left-wing:-)

I don't think I've said that. Maybe.

So thusly I surmise that you do not want to wear clothes around sausage-blowers and hemp-growers, but that you wish to be fully clothed around hawks (feathered or not)?

Ummmmm... Yes?

8^]

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Message 560301 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 15:53:38 UTC - in response to Message 560297.  

From my point of view, they indeed are right-wing even though I understand them. It's just a matter of where you stand. Most libertarians are right-wing in my eyes.

Libertarians aren't any more right than they are left. They would shut down corporate welfare just as fast as they would shut down individual welfare.


Is it liberty to stop people and corporations from doing welfare? I thought that was totaliarism.
So your libertarianism is all about you being against everything else for the sake of it? And wanting to force everything to your view? I guess that you do like speed and moving pistons and rushing steem to? Read the futurist manifesto man.


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Message 560303 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 15:54:19 UTC - in response to Message 560298.  

I was more thinking about you saying that people are left-wing:-)

I don't think I've said that. Maybe.

So thusly I surmise that you do not want to wear clothes around sausage-blowers and hemp-growers, but that you wish to be fully clothed around hawks (feathered or not)?

Ummmmm... Yes?


Thank you.
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Message 560342 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 16:27:48 UTC - in response to Message 560203.  

But Kant has been thoroughly bashed on the front of Universal values a long time ago. What is universal is just culturally derived from common practice in the beforementioned culture. For instance it is okay for an american leader to be pro executions, but that is not okay for a european leader since in europe consensus is against the procedure. So for that there is no universal value. And I would be seriously surprised if you or anyone else could come up with something that is a universal value, because that would also have to be TRUE for ALL.
Surprise: Truth, Righteousness, Reliability are three out of many universal values which are appreciated in every culture.


Is truth really universal? And what is truth? For instance an author who is writing a fictional book is not stating something that is in a strict sense true, but it is still upheld in many societies as something good. The theory behind a nuclear bomb is in many ways TRUE, but most people do not see it as something "good".The only things that are universally true is well-formed formal sentence logic. Some mathematicians do not agree on this and says that mathematics in a closed system based on mathematical logics is also true.
Righteousness? Whose righteousness are you talking about? George Bush certainly believe that he is that. You do so, and so does many others. Problem is that their definition of it is not the same. I do not think I am righteous, I know I am not. So that can't be universal.
Reliability? If that was something universal, how come then that most things and people break when either the warranty or the contract has run out, the rest break their reliabality thingy before that date.

Normally here a swede for instance will come up with that it is a universal value to not spank children. An american will come up with that it is not okay to eat children. Most cultures will come up with that sex is not okay with children. But there is probably somewhere out there a spanking cannibalistic pedophile who will go "Oh yeah! Says who?".
IMHO a too exaggerated example to be taken serious.


Yes it is exaggerated, but obviously you couldn't prove it wrong.

So the only viable option is to say "that freedom is the abillity to live by the majority values". Which is actually the system behind most cultures way of instigating laws. But it is not TRUE freedom in every sense of the word. And thusly true freedom is a chimera sought after by lesser souls without contact with reallity.
Sad that you are believing this. I think that many of the people who don't wish to see (and even fight for) a better world are just slaves of greed and envy or of ignorance.


And now you are putting words in my mouth that I never said. Stop doing that. I find that it is a large infringement on my personal freedom that your doing.

I do fight for a better world in more ways than you would understand. But that does not make me into a such an idealistic person that I do not see how the world is. By better understanding it I can actually do more.
Question: What have you done personally to make the world a better place for other people without being egoistic while doing it?
Answer: Nothing. (And I can prove it)

You are well meaning young man. But you are seriously lacking in knowledge. I suggest that you study philosophy to get your argumentation straightened out. Because you are right now just reinventing a wheel that was finnished in constructing more than 2000 years ago. And if I might add, it is fun like heck to study philosophy, but not easy.
If you want to read up some more I suggest John Rawls "A Theory of Justice". I found that book really good.

Carl

I'd like more clarification on all of these points you are trying to raise here. Thanks.
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Message 560367 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 17:05:56 UTC - in response to Message 560301.  

Is it liberty to stop people and corporations from doing welfare? I thought that was totaliarism.

Any person or any corporation can do whatever welfare they wish, to whatever extent that they wish. However, no one has the right to force them to do any of those things. If they choose to do them freely, more power to them.

So your libertarianism is all about you being against everything else for the sake of it? And wanting to force everything to your view?

No, it means that no person or entity has the right to initiate force against anyone else. Meaning that you can believe whatever you wish, as long as you don't seek to make me pay for it, or force me to do anything to support it. It doesn't matter what you believe, or I believe, as long as we both have to live as a result of our choices.

I guess that you do like speed and moving pistons and rushing steem to? Read the futurist manifesto man.

I have no idea what this means.
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Rush

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Message 560403 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 17:39:33 UTC

Try to stay 'Noodly' , Rush.

Confusion of ability of action or efficacy with ability to impose force upon people is common with some. *sigh*

Individualism? They've never encountered it. I've lived among similars, as have you. Making them understand the principle is almost impossible.


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Message 560651 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 22:15:05 UTC
Last modified: 5 May 2007, 22:16:51 UTC

I think any person (also the poor ones) do have the right to have a place to live, to get educated, to get medical treatment, to get enough food, - all in all to have the same opportunities as every other person in the entire country. And I believe that any society which allows poverty among their citizens has to care that these basic rights are granted to everybody. Security means are second priority to this.

But the arguments of the both of you, R/B and Rush, sound similar to some ideas I've read about: of Ben Tucker and Murray Rothbarth - ideas I absolutely cannot agree with. Also the "Objectism" ideas of Ayn Rand are contrary to my convictions. These three philosophers' ideas I only can call egocentric.

In my opinion, social acts like welfare or others are absolutely necessary in a country which allows poverty. I think each society needs the opposite of being egocentric: to help those in need, to strengthen the the week, to live together instead of coincidentally side by side.
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Message 560665 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 22:24:28 UTC - in response to Message 560651.  
Last modified: 5 May 2007, 22:25:41 UTC

I think any person (also the poor ones) do have the right to have a place to live, to get educated, to get medical treatment, to get enough food, - all in all to have the same opportunities as every other person in the entire country.

How? Define "right?" What grants them that right? And even if such a right is granted, how is it provided for?

And I believe that any society which allows poverty among their citizens has to care that these basic rights are granted to everybody. Security means are second priority.

To you maybe, but that's really never been the case.

But the arguments of the both of you, R/B and Rush, sound similar to some ideas I've read about: of Ben Tucker and Murray Rothbarth - ideas I absolutely cannot agree with. Also the "Objectism" ideas of Ayn Rand are contrary to my convictions. These three philosophers' ideas I only can call egocentric.

Egoists, maybe. It's very simple: they believe that you do not have the right to stick a gun in my face (use gov't force) to make me pay for that "right to have a place to live," anymore than I have the right to stick a gun in your face (use gov't force) to make you pay for nuclear weapons, corporate welfare, or anything else that I may want.

In my opinion, social acts like welfare or others are absolutely necessary in a country which allows poverty. I think each society needs the opposite of being egocentric: to help those in need, to strengthen the the week, to live together instead of coincidentally side by side.

Do it. No one is stopping you. Go nuts. Have at it. No laws prevent you from doing this. No country would stop you from doing this.

But this isn't what you are suggesting--you have to stick a gun in my face (use gov't force) to make me do that for two reasons. 1) You, and those that think like you, won't put enough time, effort, and money into it to accomplish your goals on your own. 2) Since you can't be bothered, you need to force me to do help you out, because I won't adhere to your program voluntarily. Ever. Never have, never will.

If it's OK for you to use force to make me pay for your silly education programs, you can understand why it's OK for others to make you pay for the WHISC and the CIA and War in Iraq.
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Rush

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Message 560673 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 22:35:22 UTC

Usually I just sort of scratch my chin and grin when reading people's comments. I make a joke or three in response and then move along.

This kind of answer from him is truly shocking... Once I consider it again in a greater context of history it makes more sense.
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Message 560683 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 22:49:40 UTC - in response to Message 560665.  


If it's OK for you to use force to make me pay for your silly education programs, you can understand why it's OK for others to make you pay for the WHISC and the CIA and War in Iraq.

No I cannot understand that. The WHISC, or former SOA, has not been called "School of Assassins" without reason. It is the most fascistoid facility since the Napola in the "Third Reich". Each cent the US government is spending for them is one cent too much.
SOA graduates include former Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega, El Salvador death squad leader Roberto D'Aubuisson, and former dictators of Argentina, Peru, Ecuador, and Bolivia. SOA graduates were also responsible for the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero, the El Mozote massacre, the Uraba massacre, and the assassination of six Jesuit priests, their housekeeper and her daughter. Vladimiro Montesinos, another graduate of the SOA and right- hand man of Peruvian President Alberto Fujimori, has been implicated as the leader of the Grupo Colina death squad responsible for numerous massacres in Peru.
And for such an institution the US government is spending Millions of Dollars? Incredible. It's a shame!
Both, the WHISC and the Klan - but also the ideologically similar NSDAP(AO) belong banned and forbidden. To let them do their anti-human things, even to let them publish and congregate, is a perversion of the constitutional rights.

About CIA and Wars - that's another thing, and I think we had discussed about them earlier.
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Message 560711 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 23:27:04 UTC

What on earth are you talking about? I'm probably speaking for a couple of others when I ask this...your comments coming from a german, after you earlier made a sort of eugenics claim on people with illnessess, that you lack a certain credibility here. There was one excuse you gave about not having a facility with english that may have been the culprit but since then you have clearly shown skills in the english language that rival most college graduates in our country. You clearly know what you're saying.
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Message 560726 - Posted: 5 May 2007, 23:52:56 UTC - in response to Message 560711.  
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What on earth are you talking about? I'm probably speaking for a couple of others when I ask this...your comments coming from a german, after you earlier made a sort of eugenics claim on people with illnessess, that you lack a certain credibility here.

I never ever said anything to make a eugenics claim. Please do me the favor to link to the post or to copy/paste the sentences you mean, to show where I said something like that... But I'm absolutely sure that I never said something about eugenics.

There was one excuse you gave about not having a facility with english that may have been the culprit but since then you have clearly shown skills in the english language that rival most college graduates in our country. You clearly know what you're saying.

And I have also installed a little program recently, called "Ding" (originally a Linux program, but I found it as a Windows version in a Computer magazine), which gives me the right translation of the word I'm missing just one click away.
Before I found this, I had to stand up from the desk when I missed a word, and go to the book-shelf to take the big dictionary (it's really big: 7.5 kg; I bought it as a part of a 30-volume encyclopedia in the early 90's) and look up the missing word. Mostly I simply was to lazy for that (or to tired) and just tried to express myself without using this dictionary.

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Message 560769 - Posted: 6 May 2007, 0:47:28 UTC - in response to Message 559511.  

Had you said this right from the beginning, I never would have commented.

And yet the argument still rages on... ;)
It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .
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Message 560794 - Posted: 6 May 2007, 1:26:49 UTC

Your earlier comments about people having 'diseases inside of themselves' don't need further references.
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Message 560824 - Posted: 6 May 2007, 2:16:41 UTC - in response to Message 560794.  
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Your earlier comments about people having 'diseases inside of themselves' don't need further references.

Okay. I understand. Well - I know, only a few vocabular problems, just expression problems. I hope this time it sounds not too confuse.

But what I wrote (I have re-read the post you meant), at least what I meant while I wrote them, has nothing to do with eugenics. Do not connect my comments with this insane, evil "Race hygienic" stuff.

But it does have to do with genetics. Because, I learned in Biology that some diseases, and also the - like I said: affinity - for other diseases are given by parents to their children via genes. Some of them are dominant, these are given directly from the parents to the kids - and some are recessive, they may lack a few generations. So that - say my great-grandfather can have suffered from a cancer (so the affinity to get it is in the genes), and not my grandfather after him was suffering from a cancer, neither my father after, it was "carried" hidden, recessively, to my brother. My Grandfather, and my father had the disease in their bodies, but it didn't come out in them, they were healthy - they just "carried" it. Similar but worse like when you "carry" flu viruses from one sick person to "give" them to another without getting the flu yourself.
So my thought was, that people can't know whether they got the "bad" genes or just "carry" them to the next generation. So, if there is any substance triggering something of your genetic heritage, you can become sick, and your brother not, though he had the same substances around. You (becoming sick) had that gene, he (remaining healthy) didn't have it or is just "carrying" it maybe to one of his children or grandchildren.

It's like with the blood groups: When parents have A, and the other B, they can - depending on their recessive Genotype - give birth to children with A, B, AB, and 0. That's why the blood test is sometimes complicated.
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Message 560825 - Posted: 6 May 2007, 2:18:35 UTC - in response to Message 560794.  
Last modified: 6 May 2007, 2:19:16 UTC

Your earlier comments about people having 'diseases inside of themselves' don't need further references.


I'm sorry, Robert, but I didn't read Thorin's comment like that.

I can partly agree with him, that some people are more predisposed to get illnesses, and certain cancer forms are hereditary, like a certain form of breast cancer, where women, who have relatives, mothers and sisters, who had breast cancer, have chosen to have preventive mastectomies done as the probability of themselves getting it is very high.

It's a common perception mostly in the New Age circles that we cause our illnesses ourselves through negative ways of thinking, and that you also can cure yourself through positive thinking.

But this is actually a problem for people who suffer from some very aggressive lethal illnesses, such as certain forms of cancer, and it can create a lot of guilt feelings in the patients, that they themselves are responsible for their condition, that they themselves have brought them into their situation. And some of them are taking measures in trying to heal themselves through alternative healing, some very painful and always extremely expensive. So, besides fighting a serious illness, they also have to fight those feelings of being alone, of having caused their own situation. And that is inhuman in my opinion.


"I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me

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