@ Mikey

Here's the thing, not all crops are modified in the same way. Some are "fixed" for high yield as you pointed out, but others are engineered to produce pesticides and herbicides. That's where the problem lies. Tests show blood, kidney and liver damage in rats. of course Monsanto (leader in the field and the fields) doesn't want you to know this. Check out this article and I'm sure you could google a whole lot more of the same.

[url=http://www.newswithviews.com/Smith/jeffrey7.htm]

hope the link works, i've been having issues!! lol

Don't forget that Monsanto has had these GMO crops in fields right next to non GMO crops...I've got news for the world pollination doesn't just happen in the field where the GMO corn is grown. Wind carries it to other fields and insects are the most prolific pollinators of them all.

Basic biology/ecology here... cross pollination is very real and it will happen in the fields where they raise corn or other grains for the seed as well. Once that happens to a great enough degree it is likely that it will be in every level of the food supply and every product that contains that particular grain. Eventually it will be hard to find anything that isn't GMO.

Now the really scary thought is this. What happens when we start mixing multiple GMO crops and they start to cross pollinate...what then will we have? Remember that for every Xx and Yy pair of chromosomes that you cross pollinate you will have 8 possible variations in the genetic code. Now compound that with the number of chromosome pairs that each organism has and the number that is genetically modified and compound it again over time with GMO's being introduced and their cross pollinated offspring being reintroduced in with other GMO's or other crops that are non GMO and it gets exponentially complex. It's a bit like Pandora's box in that once it's out there you can't just call it back or undo the damage.
It is very very likely that we will see genetic mutations that they did not anticipate. While these proteins that we speak of may be harnessed for the greater good they can also sow destruction on a level not easily imagined.
Hypothetically speaking...What would happen if one day we realized that the mystery illness of the future that seems to be striking people is really as a result of the food that we have always deemed as safe but suddenly is deadly poisonous to humans. Some may see this as me playing chicken little but in reality this is what we are looking at and no single person can possibly know what the release of these GMO's will really do, or the damage that they may cause.

Not disputing your point but MOST Genetic corn and other GMO's are sterile. This prevents the consumer from saving the seed and not buying new seeds from the company next year. Makes for resales. Kind of like the very low price cell phone or printer, it is the follow-up sales that makes the money.

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Anti-cancer chicken eggs produced

UK scientists have developed genetically modified chickens capable of laying eggs containing proteins needed to make cancer-fighting drugs.

What do people reckon, a good or a bad idea?

It's a good idea, to develop what is needed. These particular chickens are probably better treated than most. The bad idea is what we are doing to the "most".

Eating them of course, what else would you do with a chicken?
They seem to be pretty useless as watchdogs, the foxes tend to take them all the time! But then they eat them too.

Yes you are right mikey, but I was thinking about the conditions that battery hens were kept in. But as far as I am concerned, so long as they aren't tortured or made to sing karaoke then I remain a fan of KFC. Love it with coleslaw.

Karaoke...god no but there is always the chicken dance...

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@ Mikey

Here's the thing, not all crops are modified in the same way. Some are "fixed" for high yield as you pointed out, but others are engineered to produce pesticides and herbicides. That's where the problem lies. Tests show blood, kidney and liver damage in rats. of course Monsanto (leader in the field and the fields) doesn't want you to know this. Check out this article and I'm sure you could google a whole lot more of the same.

[url=http://www.newswithviews.com/Smith/jeffrey7.htm]

hope the link works, i've been having issues!! lol

Don't forget that Monsanto has had these GMO crops in fields right next to non GMO crops...I've got news for the world pollination doesn't just happen in the field where the GMO corn is grown. Wind carries it to other fields and insects are the most prolific pollinators of them all.

Basic biology/ecology here... cross pollination is very real and it will happen in the fields where they raise corn or other grains for the seed as well. Once that happens to a great enough degree it is likely that it will be in every level of the food supply and every product that contains that particular grain. Eventually it will be hard to find anything that isn't GMO.

Now the really scary thought is this. What happens when we start mixing multiple GMO crops and they start to cross pollinate...what then will we have? Remember that for every Xx and Yy pair of chromosomes that you cross pollinate you will have 8 possible variations in the genetic code. Now compound that with the number of chromosome pairs that each organism has and the number that is genetically modified and compound it again over time with GMO's being introduced and their cross pollinated offspring being reintroduced in with other GMO's or other crops that are non GMO and it gets exponentially complex. It's a bit like Pandora's box in that once it's out there you can't just call it back or undo the damage.
It is very very likely that we will see genetic mutations that they did not anticipate. While these proteins that we speak of may be harnessed for the greater good they can also sow destruction on a level not easily imagined.
Hypothetically speaking...What would happen if one day we realized that the mystery illness of the future that seems to be striking people is really as a result of the food that we have always deemed as safe but suddenly is deadly poisonous to humans. Some may see this as me playing chicken little but in reality this is what we are looking at and no single person can possibly know what the release of these GMO's will really do, or the damage that they may cause.

Not disputing your point but MOST Genetic corn and other GMO's are sterile. This prevents the consumer from saving the seed and not buying new seeds from the company next year. Makes for resales. Kind of like the very low price cell phone or printer, it is the follow-up sales that makes the money.

I wasn't talking about the farmers trying to use the seed off their land to produce more seed for themselves. You are correct in that what they have standard access to is sterile after the single generation. Seed doesn't just materialize out of thin air...it has to be produced by growing it.

I was however talking about the companies that render the GMO's to start with... Take a trip the the U.S. heart land and you will see that the big companies contract with farmers to grow the non sterile grain to produce the seed that other farmers use to grow their crops, and this happens right next to fields where other brands of grain are being grown or even other GMO crops.

It can not be contained in the current process that they use.

Not only that but even if you take into consideration the single generation of crop that is the current process limited by the sterilization, it still needs to be pollinated to get any yield at all. So we come full circle in that the pollination will happen anyway as a matter of course and if you have two GMO crops in in proximity to each other say one that produces a herbicide and another that produces a pesticide what could happen if the two cross pollinate just in 1 generation.

Remember 8 possible chances of disaster for ever modified pair of chromosomes. It's akin to playing russian roulette with the worlds food supply. Even one single generation could have severe repercussions.

The theory that the seed is 100% sterile is also not completely true either. Yes they do a good job of rendering it mostly useless however walk any bean field after they do a crop rotation from corn which is standard farming practice and you will see what is commonly known as "volunteer corn" in non farming terms it is the seed that may spill out of a wagon or may get kicked out the back of a combine or even may get knocked down so that a combine can't pick up the crop. That seed sits in the ground till the next growing season and if the conditions are right it will grow. So like I stated it isn't 100% like people think it is.

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Taking a step back a little on the Genetic Modification debate.

I would argue that the whole of the modern human history of food production starting about 10,000 years or so ago with the development of agriculture and domestication around the Meditteranean Basin and Near Middle East (with no apologies to young earth creationism) has been the history of the transformation of food products and livestock from one form into another.

This transformation or modification is a genetic one, since the offspring of these plants and creatures are similar to their 'parents' rather than reverting back to the 'original type'. Successfully cross-breeding modern forms with earlier forms being difficult or impossible.

The wheat, barley, rice, cows, sheep, etc, that we have now have been genetically modified (that is, they have evolved) from their original forms by various forms of artificial selection over the years.

So what the scientists in the original post, and others such Monsanto or pharmaceutical companies, are doing is nothing more than what humans have been doing for a long time - simply with the latest techniques available at any given point in history.

Any human endeavour that has not been tried before carries risks, but that should not be a bar from engaging in the endeavour. A certain amount of risk analysis should occur, but it shouldn't be an excuse for procrastination.

The benefits of genetic modification of foodstuffs are truly enormous. An end to human hunger (whilst it will not occur in the lifetime of anyone reading this) is surely a fine goal to aim for. Surplus food products will not in and of itself end world hunger, but it is one of the important factors. Human ingenuity has (and always will) give the lie to Malthus' populaton theories.

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Join TeamACC

Sometimes I think we are alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we are not. In either case the idea is quite staggering.

The theory that the seed is 100% sterile is also not completely true either. Yes they do a good job of rendering it mostly useless however walk any bean field after they do a crop rotation from corn which is standard farming practice and you will see what is commonly known as "volunteer corn" in non farming terms it is the seed that may spill out of a wagon or may get kicked out the back of a combine or even may get knocked down so that a combine can't pick up the crop. That seed sits in the ground till the next growing season and if the conditions are right it will grow. So like I stated it isn't 100% like people think it is.

Actually most of the volunteers you are seeing are not the GMO crop coming up but seeds from crops prior to the GMO being grown.
I do agree though, 100% is a number, not a fact.

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"[quote]Taking a step back a little on the Genetic Modification debate.

The wheat, barley, rice, cows, sheep, etc, that we have now have been genetically modified (that is, they have evolved) from their original forms by various forms of artificial selection over the years.

So what the scientists in the original post, and others such Monsanto or pharmaceutical companies, are doing is nothing more than what humans have been doing for a long time - simply with the latest techniques available at any given point in history.

Any human endeavour that has not been tried before carries risks, but that should not be a bar from engaging in the endeavour. A certain amount of risk analysis should occur, but it shouldn't be an excuse for procrastination."

I don't think we should procrastinate, just employ extreme caution. Selective cross breeding is one thing but gene splicing is another.

I don't think we should procrastinate, just employ extreme caution. Selective cross breeding is one thing but gene splicing is another.

Gene splicing is just another word for "actively cross breeding". It is the same thing, only much faster than Mother Nature does.
Gene splicing can also bring in things that Mother Nature can't/doesn't on her own. With Gene Splicing you can make a Lion and a Tiger, they call it a Liger. In the wild this is not going to happen because of territorial and habitat disputes. A Liger is HUGE, about 25% bigger than both a Lion and a Tiger, But is sterile. Gene Splicing can make a Monkey and a Human, this would never happen i nthe wild. At least we don't think it can happen, there have been some examples of some VERY human looking, and acting, apes. Gene Splicing can do some wonderful things, it can also, in the wrong hands, be a recipe for some HORRIBLE things. And THAT is what has alot of the World scared. Dr. Mengele was a Licensed DOCTOR, but did some HORRIBLE experiments. The World is full of people that would try things, because 'they can'.

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Mother Nature still knows more than we do about DNA. We're learning, but we need to walk before we can 100 metre dash. Actually, I think we're arguing the same point. We just differ on how quickly to proceed with intoducing it to the world.

I AM enjoying all the different viewpoints though.

I don't think we should procrastinate, just employ extreme caution. Selective cross breeding is one thing but gene splicing is another.

Gene splicing is just another word for "actively cross breeding". It is the same thing, only much faster than Mother Nature does.
Gene splicing can also bring in things that Mother Nature can't/doesn't on her own. With Gene Splicing you can make a Lion and a Tiger, they call it a Liger. In the wild this is not going to happen because of territorial and habitat disputes. A Liger is HUGE, about 25% bigger than both a Lion and a Tiger, But is sterile. Gene Splicing can make a Monkey and a Human, this would never happen i nthe wild. At least we don't think it can happen, there have been some examples of some VERY human looking, and acting, apes. Gene Splicing can do some wonderful things, it can also, in the wrong hands, be a recipe for some HORRIBLE things. And THAT is what has alot of the World scared. Dr. Mengele was a Licensed DOCTOR, but did some HORRIBLE experiments. The World is full of people that would try things, because 'they can'.

Mengele was a monster mainly because he had no ethics when working with humans that were considered by his government to not be human. History has shown what a butcher he became, yet at the heart of it you have to wonder how someone gets to be like that. They have to have those tendencies to begin with.

As to the GMO discussion part of the issue is that nature takes baby steps this keeps the world in balance as other species are able to adapt. When big steps are taken by science they have ramifications that extend beyond the immediate effect that the scientists were aiming for. Too many big steps or the wrong big step and it will upset that balance dramatically.

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Mengele was a monster mainly because he had no ethics when working with humans that were considered by his government to not be human. History has shown what a butcher he became, yet at the heart of it you have to wonder how someone gets to be like that. They have to have those tendencies to begin with.

As to the GMO discussion part of the issue is that nature takes baby steps this keeps the world in balance as other species are able to adapt. When big steps are taken by science they have ramifications that extend beyond the immediate effect that the scientists were aiming for. Too many big steps or the wrong big step and it will upset that balance dramatically.

I think we are all capable of becoming monsters under the right circumstances whether we are aware of this or not. Of course, the number of people who actually become monsters is vanishingly small, despite what you might see and read in the news media (who have their own particular set of economic and political motives and agenda).

See for example: Stanford prison experiment


In terms of taking too many Big Steps in the wrong direction; I have a greater faith in the human potential to rectify mistakes (in the medium term).

We are not always going to know what mistakes have been made until after the decisions have been made. We cannot predict the future with any real accuracy, if we could we wouldn't need science or scientists.

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Join TeamACC

Sometimes I think we are alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we are not. In either case the idea is quite staggering.

I think we are all capable of becoming monsters under the right circumstances whether we are aware of this or not. Of course, the number of people who actually become monsters is vanishingly small, despite what you might see and read in the news media (who have their own particular set of economic and political motives and agenda).

The problem is that SOME of us, do not wish to control ourselves or relish the idea of letting go and doing what we WANT to do, not what we know we SHOULD do. Those people that do let go, probably have a prediposition to do this and should be screened. BUT how do you screen someone that is in-charge of a project that was picked by someone else? Frankly you can't! The World will always have people that go off on a tangent and do things that they should not do. MOST people will do what they are supposed to do and only vary a little from the line drawn by Society. Sometimes going one way off the line, other times going the other way, but always coming back to the line. Since Science is about 'peer review', hopefully the GMO will be peer reviewed' and the absolutely outrageous things dumped along the way. Kind of like the human and ape test tube example I used earlier, it is POSSIBLE, but should NEVER be done!

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"Science investigates religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power religion gives man wisdom which is control."

Martin Luther King, Jr.


"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."

Isaac Asimov

"Science investigates religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power religion gives man wisdom which is control."

Martin Luther King, Jr.


"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."

Isaac Asimov

The problem with Religion is that they are always trying to interpret Science!
me

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"Science investigates religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power religion gives man wisdom which is control."

Martin Luther King, Jr.


"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."

Isaac Asimov

The problem with Religion is that they are always trying to interpret Science!
me

Amen!!!!!

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It is no good to try to stop knowledge from going forward. Ignorance is never better than knowledge. --- Enrico Fermi ---

The problem with Religion is that they are always trying to interpret Science!

But so are scientists, they don't all agree with each other.

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Join TeamACC

Sometimes I think we are alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we are not. In either case the idea is quite staggering.

"Science investigates religion interprets. Science gives man knowledge which is power religion gives man wisdom which is control."

Martin Luther King, Jr.


"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."

Isaac Asimov

The problem with Religion is that they are always trying to interpret Science!
me

The problem with Science is that they are always trying to interpret Religion



Without one the other is doomed.