I'll start by quoting the relevent portion of the GPL:

[...]

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you."

And the GPL has been very carefully and very thoughtfully crafted.

There have been many misconceptions about our motivation to produce our own "in house" optimized applications. The same reasons that drove Crunch3r to leave this project, and stop developing and distributing optimized apps for public consumption are high on the list. Also, the tools necessary to develop these applications are very expensive, and it is a painstaking, time consuming process. We decided that we did not want to become dependant upon others to produce such applications in the future. ...

Fair motivation thus far...

It is almost funny to see people insulting our team and our members every chance they get, then in the next breath, think they should be entitled to our work. One has only to look at what was done to Crunch3r, who funded the majority of HIS OWN commercial development software, not to mention the countless hours of his time, and one can see why we chose not to distribute our apps.

Simon has chosen to take the same chances as Crunch3r. He has done a wonderful thing for people he doesn't even know. How was he treated? Some jacka$$ listed his website as PORNOGRAPHIC!!! That was an utterly despicable act perpetrated by a very depraved person!!! That's the respect he got for creating his apps for all of you. I respect Simon very much for what he has done, but I do not envy him one little bit. Now HE will have the consequenses of having to deal with those who feel they are entitled to his work, and demanding that he add this feature or that feature. Although many people have thanked him, there are others that seem to think it is now his DUTY to provide the world with optimized apps. To Simon, you have my sympathy. You've done an outstanding job!

Many others I'm sure, and myself, give great credit and respect for Simon's efforts. Unfortunately, especially so in a "free" society, there will always be a few that are disenfranchised or are just plain mischievous idiots. Hopefully, all the positive peer pressure and positive regards will always win out for the best.

It's all part of being in and suffering being in the "lime light".

We at SETI.USA, however, have chosen to develop private applications as a courtesy to our members, so they no longer have to rely upon the kindness of someone like Crunch3r or Simon to produce and support them. Since we did not publicly release them, we don't have the headache of dealing with support for individuals who insult and verbally abuse our team and our members with every opportunity they get, and in many cases, go out of their way to insult us. Our applications were created for those who contribute to our success, NOT for those who insult us, or seek to discredit us.

Those who are not members of our team are now free to download and use Simon's excellent applications, or purchase the expensive development software themselves, and invest the LONG HOURS to develop and thouroughly test their OWN apps, and make SURE that they are producing VALID, "STRONGLY SIMILAR" results.

There is no denying the expense of Intel's and Microsoft's tools and the Human time and effort to get it all to work.

It is your choice as to what you do with the results of your efforts.

Just be honest about the reasons. This is all to boost your group and point scoring of your group and your group alone. This has nothing to do with the aims of the s@h project to search for SETI.


For releasing your improved apps, and possibly suffering a little noise from a few idiots, you gain the huge benefit that "Open Source" gains in that you freely acquire development help and testing if you wished it, and you gain a wider user base if your application is good. You also gain good kudos for boosting the aims of s@h. You also get your group's name emblazoned in a very positive light.

The positive publicity and positive fraternity from everyone being able to freely use your hard work for the good of s@h itself should give positive reward for your efforts and your group. (The few idiots you'll suffer should be easily shrugged off.)

And you are supposed to be in the "Land of The Free". Should Science also be free to all?

(All just my own personal views. I'll let others discuss their views :-) )

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I'll start by quoting the relevent portion of the GPL:

"The GPL does not require you to release your modified version.

<snip>

Regards, Daniel.

Thanks for stopping by to state and clarify your's and the team's rationale and motivations regarding the app.

Personally I don't have any problem with it, simply because you are well within your rights under the GPL to do it that way and apparently have taken all the steps required to satisfy GPL requirements for a "private" release.

Although, just for accuracy's sake the passage you quoted is from the FAQs and not the body of the GPL, and thus is FSF's interpretation of how GPL should work in this scenario. Whether a court of law would interpret it that way is not certain, but a court would most likely give weight to it in any deliberations.

I'm sure Berkeley took this into account before they decided to release under GPL, and even if they aren't too happy about it happening they knew it was a possibility. My guess is they will not comment one way or another since it's a fact at this point.

However, there is one point in your commentary which I have to take exception to which pertains to thoughtless commentary from the "peanut gallery". The correct response is: "Please refer to sections 11 and 12 of the license, thank you". :-)

Specifically regarding Crunch3r and his app, there must have been more to it than what was apparent here in NC. I can only conclude the main reason for his pulling out was he felt his work was not be given full consideration when he offered it to the development team. However, they are under no more obligation to incorporate any changes to their source tree than Crunch3r would have been to change his modified app based on Berkeley "demands".

The part which troubles me here is Crunch3r chose to release publicly, and thus is bound by the terms of the license. For him to then decide to pull out for any reason, but not honor the terms of the license he released under is highly unprofessional and not keeping within the spirit of the FSF and GPL. It also creates a kind of nasty legal situation which has never been litigated AFAIK.

The problem is anyone one who DL'ed the apps while they were publicly available is within their rights to request source code for them. Crunch3r apparently cannot provide it since he stated he destroyed the source code, even though he would be entitled to charge a fee for it to cover his costs of maintaining its availability during the 3 year sunset clause. Ugly, and the kind of paradox attorneys love to sink their teeth into.

Regards,

Alinator

Many others I'm sure, and myself, give great credit and respect for Simon's efforts. ...

For awarding high kudos, we must also mention the hard efforts of the others whom have contributed to improve the s@h applications. From my very incomplete memory that includes TMR (Maverick-Rai), Hans Dorn, Eric, Naparst(sp?), Crunch3r,... and others (apologies there!)...

Hey, what about an honours list? 'Cos I've lost track of some of the very familiar names! (Must be too hot here...)

Happy crunchin',

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Many others I'm sure, and myself, give great credit and respect for Simon's efforts. ...

For awarding high kudos, we must also mention the hard efforts of the others whom have contributed to improve the s@h applications. From my very incomplete memory that includes TMR (Maverick-Rai), Hans Dorn, Eric, Naparst(sp?), Crunch3r,... and others (apologies there!)...

Hey, what about an honours list 'cos I've lost track of some of the very familiar names! (Must be too hot here...)

Happy crunchin',

Regards,
Martin

That's a thought! Maybe a new item for the home page "About" column.

Alinator

Opps - hit the enter key by mistake, these new forums dont show my previous post immediatly,.

As i was saying:

Daniel S. with everything that is going on in his life does not have the time, nor energy to put up with the endless support questions that come out of a public release of the app.
I applaud Chicken for his dedication, and time he puts into repling to endless support questions. Crunch3r did the same - for what ?

And yes, I have donated cash to the support of this project, not $5.00 or $10.00 but hundereds of dollars - see my green star - where is yours ?.

Lets not get into a pissing match of who has done this and who has done that, this topic should not even be a discussion.


And in reponse to someone who said something about team competition - yes, we have a competitive nature to our team - so what! We are not the only team out there that have a competitve nature for credits.

There are no rules that say a team, any team can not do what we have done, and they have in the past - in fact in the old classic system, teams used to out right cheat to get ahead. Seti.Usa is not cheating, We develope a faster vehicle.
If this was Nascar team SETI.USA found a faster way to get around the track, well, there is nothing wrong with that.

If someone wants a faster way to do something then go do it - this attitude of whats yours is mine is silly. Quite your whinning and complaining and go out and do it yourselfs. Quit relying on others to give you stuff.


And speaking about contributing to the science - ML1 - all you do is post - you have not returned a single WU in over 30 days - not a single one. Do you think that your posting is contributing to the science ? Or are you only here to complain - and why do you care about the app since you apparently dont crunch for Seti.

---

There have been many misconceptions about our motivation to produce our own "in house" optimized applications. The same reasons that drove Crunch3r to leave this project, and stop developing and distributing optimized apps for public consumption are high on the list. Regards, Daniel.

This is a red herring, because as soon as someone, Simon in this particular case but anyone could have done it, saw the optimised version, your idea of keeping the problems that Crunch3r had were thrown out the window. IF no one had ever found out about your 'optimised' version that would have been fine, but as soon as someone did, then you were open to the EXACT same criticims that Crunch3r went thru. And doing it in this way has opened you to a whole lot more.
You could have charged $1.00US per person to have your version on someones computer(s) and people would have handed over TONS of money! MORE, I believe, than you have spent so far. You could have even worked with Berkeley, saying that people must contribute to Seti before they get access to the program, Berkeley needs the money, and you could have used the props!!
Voting to keep the program in-house was not a good decision, but WAS yours to make. Had I been a member of your Team, I would have voted no on keeping it in-house. Might not have made a difference, but....

---

Just be honest about the reasons. This is all to boost your group and point scoring of your group and your group alone. This has nothing to do with the aims of the s@h project to search for SETI.

I was completely honest and forthcoming about our reasons. For some reason, you can't get past the misconceptions you hold about our team and our members. Our apps in NO WAY claim more credit than the official apps from Berkeley, nor do they claim more credit than Simon's apps. This IS all about doing as much VALID SCIENCE in a more efficient mannor, as possible. Simon is providing optimized apps for EVERYONE, downloadable for FREE. Our apps were created so that our team members do not have to rely upon the kindness of Crunch3r or Simon, or whomever next creates an optimized app. Our members have access to our "in house" apps. The rest of the world can use Simon's, or build their own. To make an accusation that our apps "have nothing to do with the aims of the S@H project to search for SETI" is just plain FALSE. There are in fact many results being crunched with our team's apps that have been chosen as the "Cannonical Result". I have had six such cannonical results on my machines alone so far, since our apps went into production. If an application is producing VALID, "STRONGLY SIMILAR" results, and occasionally the cannonical result, then there is no QUESTION about the validity of the science we do. Your only basis for a legitimate gripe here would be if our apps produced only "weakly similar" or worse results. Even if there are members on our team who's ONLY motivation was earning credits (and there is nothing wrong with that), they still have to produce VALID SCIENCE to get that credit.

And you are supposed to be in the "Land of The Free". Should Science also be free to all?

The science and the applications ARE free. Berkeley provides them to each participant. Simon provides excellent optimized versions for free. We provide them as a courtesy to our members. It is as simple as that.

Regards, Daniel.

---

Just be honest about the reasons. This is all to boost your group and point scoring of your group and your group alone. This has nothing to do with the aims of the s@h project to search for SETI.

I was completely honest and forthcoming about our reasons. For some reason, you can't get past the misconceptions you hold about our team and our members. Our apps in NO WAY claim more credit than the official apps from Berkeley, nor do they claim more credit than Simon's apps. This IS all about doing as much VALID SCIENCE in a more efficient mannor, as possible. Simon is providing optimized apps for EVERYONE, downloadable for FREE. Our apps were created so that our team members do not have to rely upon the kindness of Crunch3r or Simon, or whomever next creates an optimized app. Our members have access to our "in house" apps. The rest of the world can use Simon's, or build their own. To make an accusation that our apps "have nothing to do with the aims of the S@H project to search for SETI" is just plain FALSE. There are in fact many results being crunched with our team's apps that have been chosen as the "Cannonical Result". I have had six such cannonical results on my machines alone so far, since our apps went into production. If an application is producing VALID, "STRONGLY SIMILAR" results, and occasionally the cannonical result, then there is no QUESTION about the validity of the science we do. Your only basis for a legitimate gripe here would be if our apps produced only "weakly similar" or worse results. Even if there are members on our team who's ONLY motivation was earning credits (and there is nothing wrong with that), they still have to produce VALID SCIENCE to get that credit.

And you are supposed to be in the "Land of The Free". Should Science also be free to all?

The science and the applications ARE free. Berkeley provides them to each participant. Simon provides excellent optimized versions for free. We provide them as a courtesy to our members. It is as simple as that.

Regards, Daniel.

Why don't you unhide your computers so people can see how much credit you get per WU? Seems that is why I looked for the App in the first place...People with something to hide...Useally do.

---

Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

hiamps,

please don't assume too much :o)

I have no doubt about Daniel's dedication to valid results and credit claims. Please don't assume his reason for hiding his hosts is to mask shady practices.

I feel I have to step in here and at least try to make people stop attacking Daniel and kevint personally.

That is not the right thing to do. The decision was made and supported by their Team - and it was theirs to make.

I have said before my opinion is it was the wrong decision and made for the wrong reasons - keeping shtum about something they knew would eventually get out and reasoning it was so no fuss would be made just means to me that maybe they didn't think it through enough.

Still, accusing them of shady practices is unjust, and especially so if you try to pin blame on individuals.

Let's all relax now, please. Grab a beer from the cooler and settle down :o)

Regards,
Simon.

---

Donate to SETI@Home via PayPal!

Optimized SETI@Home apps + Information

Why don't you unhide your computers so people can see how much credit you get per WU? Seems that is why I looked for the App in the first place...People with something to hide...Useally do.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=2339076
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=2386955
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=2435645

Here are three of mine. Just taken at random from my machines.

---

Daniel,

While I might disagree with you and your team's definition of "organization", I have no problems with you or your team.

I'll start by quoting the relevent portion of the GPL:

"The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization. But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you."

I can't disagree with the GPL, just with your definition of "organization".

By your definition, someone could release their own modified binary to the SETI@Home "organization" and then refuse to provide the source code. This would violate at least the "spirit" of the project.

It is my belief that the only "organization" involved in this project is Berkeley and all the rest of us, as volunteers, are "public".

There have been many misconceptions about our motivation to produce our own "in house" optimized applications. The same reasons that drove Crunch3r to leave this project, and stop developing and distributing optimized apps for public consumption are high on the list. Also, the tools necessary to develop these applications are very expensive, and it is a painstaking, time consuming process. We decided that we did not want to become dependant upon others to produce such applications in the future. One of our team members purchased the expensive Intel software out of his own pocket. I purchased a full commercial version of Visual C++.NET out of MY own pocket. It was not "greed" on our part that prompted us not to release our apps outside our organization.

I used Crunch3r's application from the begining. I publicly encouraged him to return and I was sorry when he decided to move on. On that day the SETI community lost a great guy.

Since this is a volunteer project, people can spend their money how they want. They can spend time or purchase hardware and/or software to make the application go faster. It's up to each individual to do what they feel they can do or not do for the project.

It is almost funny to see people insulting our team and our members every chance they get, then in the next breath, think they should be entitled to our work. One has only to look at what was done to Crunch3r, who funded the majority of HIS OWN commercial development software, not to mention the countless hours of his time, and one can see why we chose not to distribute our apps.

Personal attacks on members or teams does not further the project and are not good.

Right or wrong, I have my options and I try to respect the opinions of others.

If someone start "trash talking" about something or someone, then my optinion of that individual starts going down.

Simon has chosen to take the same chances as Crunch3r. He has done a wonderful thing for people he doesn't even know. How was he treated? Some jacka$$ listed his website as PORNOGRAPHIC!!! That was an utterly despicable act perpetrated by a very depraved person!!! That's the respect he got for creating his apps for all of you. I respect Simon very much for what he has done, but I do not envy him one little bit. Now HE will have the consequenses of having to deal with those who feel they are entitled to his work, and demanding that he add this feature or that feature. Although many people have thanked him, there are others that seem to think it is now his DUTY to provide the world with optimized apps. To Simon, you have my sympathy. You've done an outstanding job!

I'm sorry to hear about Simon's problems. Unfortunately, there are people in this world who will only feel important when they are tearing down something or someone. They just don't realize how little that makes them look.

I switched from Crunch3r's application to Simon's application as soon as the windows version became available. Personally, I haven't noticed anyone demanding features. Since Crunch3r left there have been a number of folks eagerly awaiting a new optimized application and there have been a number of suggestions, "wouldn't it be nice if..." and "what do you think about..." postings.

We at SETI.USA, however, have chosen to develop private applications as a courtesy to our members, so they no longer have to rely upon the kindness of someone like Crunch3r or Simon to produce and support them. Since we did not publicly release them, we don't have the headache of dealing with support for individuals who insult and verbally abuse our team and our members with every opportunity they get, and in many cases, go out of their way to insult us. Our applications were created for those who contribute to our success, NOT for those who insult us, or seek to discredit us.

Again, I have to disagree with your definition of "organization" as it applies to the GPL.

Those who are not members of our team are now free to download and use Simon's excellent applications, or purchase the expensive development software themselves, and invest the LONG HOURS to develop and thouroughly test their OWN apps, and make SURE that they are producing VALID, "STRONGLY SIMILAR" results.

Regards, Daniel.

Personally, I'd love to spend the time and money (if I had any of either) to mainatin my own optimized application. However, with only 11 of us to maintain almost 400 midrange computers at work, things can get a little bit "busy" at times.

I hope you haven't taken my posting as "insulting" or "abusive", because that was not my intent.

Live long and crunch!

---

Why don't you unhide your computers so people can see how much credit you get per WU? Seems that is why I looked for the App in the first place...People with something to hide...Useally do.

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=2339076
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=2386955
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/show_host_detail.php?hostid=2435645

Here are three of mine. Just taken at random from my machines.

Are these machines Overclocked? Those results are way higher than mine...Maybe I will need my water and Peltiers back...

---

Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

My computers are not hidden - help yourself.

---

http://www.setiusa.net

Daniel,

what do you think about displaying the real CPU speed in your apps?

#ifdef USE_IPP
int myfreq;
ippGetCpuFreqMhz(&myfreq);
fprintf(stderr,"CPU real speed: %d MHz\\n\\n",myfreq);
#endif

Works nicely, if you're interested.

Regards,
Simon.

---

Donate to SETI@Home via PayPal!

Optimized SETI@Home apps + Information

Are these machines Overclocked? Those results are way higher than mine...Maybe I will need my water and Peltiers back...

Stock, but as you can see - the claimed credits are identical to other claimed credit -
The app developed by Daniel S. and Chicken are nearly identical in speed.

---

Are these machines Overclocked? Those results are way higher than mine...Maybe I will need my water and Peltiers back...

Stock, but as you can see - the claimed credits are identical to other claimed credit -
The app developed by Daniel S. and Chicken are nearly identical in speed.

Thank you. Wonder why your times are twice as fast as mine...I see Steve Akers are where I would have expected, didn't expect a D3.0 to be twice as fast as me. Hmmm, more research....

---

Daniel,

While I might disagree with you and your team's definition of "organization", I have no problems with you or your team.

I'll start by quoting the relevent portion of the GPL:

"The GPL does not require you to release your modified version. You are free to make modifications and use them privately, without ever releasing them. This applies to organizations (including companies), too; an organization can make a modified version and use it internally without ever releasing it outside the organization. But if you release the modified version to the public in some way, the GPL requires you to make the modified source code available to the program's users, under the GPL.

Thus, the GPL gives permission to release the modified program in certain ways, and not in other ways; but the decision of whether to release it is up to you."

I can't disagree with the GPL, just with your definition of "organization".

By your definition, someone could release their own modified binary to the SETI@Home "organization" and then refuse to provide the source code. This would violate at least the "spirit" of the project.

It is my belief that the only "organization" involved in this project is Berkeley and all the rest of us, as volunteers, are "public".

<snip>

Live long and crunch!

No I don't think that's the case, SetiUSA would be considered a separate and distinct organization from Berkeley/SAH.

As I thought about it more, one advantage for SetiUSA to releasing privately under the organization scenario is they are under no obligation to provide source code to their members because it *is* a private release. This has the effect that a "rogue" member would have no right to distribute the binary to the general public because they wouldn't be able to provide the source code for it, and thus would not only violate the authors/SetiUSA's copyright for their work but Berkeley's original copyright as well.

The problem with your hypothetical scenario is that no one has the right to release anything to the general public represented as coming from Berkeley/SAH except Berkeley themselves. We as the volunteer user base do not constitute an "organization" per se, or even a component of the Berkeley organization. Obviously, a formally structured team is not the same thing as unaffiliated individuals.

Your case would be applicable if Berkeley tried to take the app closed source after releasing it as GPL though.

Just my viewpoint though. ;-)

Alinator

Are these machines Overclocked? Those results are way higher than mine...Maybe I will need my water and Peltiers back...

Stock, but as you can see - the claimed credits are identical to other claimed credit -
The app developed by Daniel S. and Chicken are nearly identical in speed.

Thank you. Wonder why your times are twice as fast as mine...I see Steve Akers are where I would have expected, didn't expect a D3.0 to be twice as fast as me. Hmmm, more research....

That host is using trux' BOINC client and so is not reporting the real CPU seconds taken. I checked on one of my hosts that was running the same, and it did not match the real times using an enhanced client correctly at all (neither corrected cpu time nor real cpu time as reported by trux' client).

That's not to put down trux' excellent work :o) It's just that stats it reports for enhanced are slightly wacky.

HTH,
Simon.

---

Donate to SETI@Home via PayPal!

Optimized SETI@Home apps + Information

Are these machines Overclocked? Those results are way higher than mine...Maybe I will need my water and Peltiers back...

Stock, but as you can see - the claimed credits are identical to other claimed credit -
The app developed by Daniel S. and Chicken are nearly identical in speed.

Thank you. Wonder why your times are twice as fast as mine...I see Steve Akers are where I would have expected, didn't expect a D3.0 to be twice as fast as me. Hmmm, more research....

Now I wonder why I am posting as Patswan...This is HIAMPS

---

Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

All it would take is for somebody to copy the code for others to download. What, I can't run it????? So sue me..............

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."