Version 5.11 was the first Seti-Enhanced optimized app released by Crunch3r under heavy pressure from the Boinc community for an optimized version. It was claiming 3 times more credit than the stock Berkeley app and was superceeded by version 5.12 a few days later. And you feel that the Boinc developers should embrace 5.11 as the official version? How can they do that? 5.11 is not an official Boinc release, it is Crunch3r's release!

I NEVER ASKED to make 5.11 the offical APP!!! I DID say the the credits awarded by v5.11 should be awarded by v5.12!! It's just the MULTIPLIER reduction that we are upset about! And, by the way, there WAS an official 5.11 NON optimized app. It was THAT code that Crunch3r optimized, then when UCB released v5.12, and Crunch3r released v5.12, the only difference was a LOWER MULTIPLIER! Please get your facts straight.

Regards, Daniel.

It is getting pretty ridiculous that people OPPOSE increasing granted credit similar to what Seti Beta was producing?!?!?

If someone goes to the gas station to fill their tank and it costs $3 a gallon (which is painful for many). Wouldn't people prefer getting more gas for their money?

People that are upset w/the new enhanced credit system are simply requesting that they earn what beta pre-enhanced had given. It is obvious in the last revision of beta/enhanced that they suddenly changed the credit system..and it is fair for some to be upset about the sudden change.


re: I too am in agreement that the moderator leadership here has gotten pretty bad as of late.

I'll wait until I can no longer get 4.18 work, and then I'll be gone.

Which is per now.

News from the front page:

May 16, 2006
All of our splitters have been altered to create workunits for SETI@home enhanced.

The door is on your left. :)

Are you one of the patients? :)

Thanks, for your patients during this transition. 

Well, when the Admin shows you the door, I guess it's time to leave...... It really shows how the people running this project feel about the folks who are VOLUNTEERING to do work for them....


The last Seven Years have been a real slice.... C Ya.

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~I like my beer dark, cigars strong, coffee black, bourbon straight and politicians on the end of a rope~
Mark Twain

The first official release here on mainstream Seti was 5.12, how and why Crunch3r allowed his 5.11 to be released, I cannot understand. It is probably the most significant single issue that started the credit 'discussions' here about enhanced.

@BlkJack-21
The only reason we were getting those very high credits on Beta was because as they introduced more and more optimisation, the devs did not alter the credit calculation. To do so would have been counter-productive at that stage, it real terms it was better to get the crunching code right and at the end worry about the credit calculation just before release on mainstream.

To get to the point where credits were high, those of us who crunched on Beta from the beginning went through periods of very low credits, no credits because versions crashed etc.

To be honest I was surprised when the Beta credits were added to the overall BOINC totals, I think it was only done to try and get more volunteers.

Let's see now...........

Dr. Anderson mandated to Eric Korpela that the credits here should be kept on par with other projects. Eric chose a multiplier, 3.35 I believe, to keep the claimed credits here on par with the previous Boinc app 4.18 and rightly so since I am sure Eric likes his job.

We know from all these years with Dr. Anderson running the projects that we are not going to change his mind. His decision to keep Seti-Enhanced on an equal par with the other projects is the only decision he could make! If more credits are earned here than other projects it is unfair to the other projects!

Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone, including myself, who operated with optimized apps was in effect over achieving and now has been set straight. I can live with that! It's a level playing field now.

Go ahead and quit if you choose so. One day I and many others will overtake your score and I don't feel bad about that at all.

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Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....

right now so many people are upset and saying things... with the upgrade to BOINC 5.4.9 and applications that can actually level the playing field it is the first chance ever to give the little guy a chance! Of course if you have more computers you have more chances... Some really miss that...

So while everyone is worked up about My RAC has dropped, and now I am not happy. I will say that "MY" RAC has dropped and some things are not a done deal.
The hate and discontent is forcing someone to do something that they might regret later... I took a year off from Seti Classic because of hardware issues... That same hardware is still running today...

So if everyone "Chills" for a bit and let the transition happen then the missing data can be examined...

Otherwise "users" that have been a part of the Beta are now Targets!. I am one of those Users that shifted a whole bunch of resources to test and make Enhanced the best it can be! Right now though I am one of Crunch3r's "testers" I am running mostly barefoot for the credit analysis... Until the transtion to Seti Enhanced is complete we are all getting frustration off our chests...

If I were to get "nasty" I see members of teams here complaining and do NOT See those Teams helping in Beta... Sorry I warned you and you chose to ignore it! YOU and everyone had a chance to go look, YOU could have Grabbed some Prime Credits! You missed out!

I will add further insult to injury... So while You Spend thousands on Computers! You can not spare $20.00 to donate to keep Seti Alive, now you are complaining that they are not doing what you want; I have less sympathy... Well, YOU are Killing Your "Cash Cow!" As the rest of the BOINC projects migrate to the "leveled playing field," I guess that BOINC Projects will take on a whole new look...

So once again, everyone take a moment to cool down!

If you really want someone to send Hate Mail to the email address is al.setiboinc (at) gmail.com. I only have 14 computers and a team of 4 people those members of the team have generated quite a bit, in a little over a year...

In a couple of days we be will crossing the 2 Million Credits, not bad for 4 people...

If you really want to know that I have done...


You are Welcome to look...

This does not mention that my personal website is a mirror for boinc.mundayweb.com. Please also consider a Donation there... Its only Credits!

Pappa

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

Let's see now...........

Dr. Anderson mandated to Eric Korpela that the credits here should be kept on par with other projects. Eric chose a multiplier, 3.35 I believe, to keep the claimed credits here on par with the previous Boinc app 4.18 and rightly so since I am sure Eric likes his job.

We know from all these years with Dr. Anderson running the projects that we are not going to change his mind. His decision to keep Seti-Enhanced on an equal par with the other projects is the only decision he could make! If more credits are earned here than other projects it is unfair to the other projects!

Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone, including myself, who operated with optimized apps was in effect over achieving and now has been set straight. I can live with that! It's a level playing field now.

Go ahead and quit if you choose so. One day I and many others will overtake your score and I don't feel bad about that at all.

I don't consider myself to be wholly on either side of this argument, so take my opinions as a central moderate on the issue... but their definitely seems to be a disparity in the pure credit curve used by Eric for the majority of non-optimized users as well. The original plan was to keep the credit/hours work essentially equivalent between 4.18 and 5.12 using the new FP based system even when the WUs would take longer... unfortunately according to some mentions in other threads, the 3.35 multiplier (and the non-linear curve for various AR) were calculated on a Sun box that did not reflect the FP characteristics of the most prevalent platforms used in SETI@Home, namely Windows and Intel based PCs (not to alienate Macs or Linux of course, but they also exhibit similar characteristics to the WinTels in this case). The results are credit returns that do not match up with what was intended (optimized or not).

Therefore, even though I don't back up the methods used by those clamoring for more credits...there are some arguments to be made on that side of the fence as well, and I wouldn't take 5.12's credit dolling capability as the "final word" on the issue. The SETI folk just need time to take a look at all the incoming results and over time with the new SETI Enhanced, adjust the granting of credits in the more balanced way they originally intended.

For those of you who did decide to stay, your best bet on getting your RAC back up is to stick around, crunch as much as you can, and wait on the next versions once the usual May University hustle and bustle is done (I bet many of the SETI folk are actually away on vacation, studying/taking Final Exams, or otherwise occupied with Graduation/Commencement). 1 Week of actual release time and a few days of completed quorum results are hardly enough to actually get an accurate assessment of how to tweak/adjust the system, especially when short staffed.

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Seti@Home used to be a search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Now, IMO, that is a secondary goal. The main goal now, for the most popular and successful distributed computing project ever, is to supply users for other BOINC projects.

Seti@Home doesn't have funding. They have been forced to ask us for donations, with which I was more than happy to help. BOINC, on the other hand, does have some funding and seems to be the main thrust of David Anderson's efforts nowadays.

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I am starting to believe that Seti@Home wants to drive users over to other projects to further the commitment to BOINC which has overtaken the commitment to Seti@Home. I like to think of it as Seti@Home now being the farm team for BOINC and nothing more...

I have done my best to help Seti@Home and as such I will now do what they want me to do; I am slowly moving over to other projects. I may come back one day - who knows.

Thankfully I know where the door is so I don't have to rely on directions from Ageless, and not to worry, I won't let it hit me on the butt on the way out. By the way, that was truly one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen from a forum mod.

Thanks for all the fish ;)

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Proud member of Team Starfire World BOINC

m00kie

Right now everyone is in the middle whether they say anything or not... everyone has formed some kind of "opinons." I must say that most of those are on evidence that is not conclusive...

It does not mean that anyone should quit, but be patient until things calm down..

So whether in the heat of the moment I say that Anyone should quit! It is only my opinion, and lookign at what is happening there are those that I would like to say you should quit... The reason be because you are not contributing, and only creating hate and discontent... Many power users that are doing the Science are upset... I guess that at this point I also have to say I am a "power user," I am not looking at quiting...

I am looking at letting Seti Enhanced get here then we have valid "data" to look at...

In the mean time we all are standing on boxes and thumping our chests... I am Important "becaue." Realistically, if I look at the history of Seti. We all are replaceable... Over 5 million Seti Classic users that are not here is proof of that... That failing was lack of communcations...

Right now there are many Users that are Helping Users. That is what keep Seti going from that side...

Pappa

Seti@Home used to be a search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Now, IMO, that is a secondary goal. The main goal now, for the most popular and successful distributed computing project ever, is to supply users for other BOINC projects.

Seti@Home doesn't have funding. They have been forced to ask us for donations, with which I was more than happy to help. BOINC, on the other hand, does have some funding and seems to be the main thrust of David Anderson's efforts nowadays.

Perhaps I'm a cynic, but I am starting to believe that Seti@Home wants to drive users over to other projects to further the commitment to BOINC which has overtaken the commitment to Seti@Home. I like to think of it as Seti@Home now being the farm team for BOINC and nothing more...

I have done my best to help Seti@Home and as such I will now do what they want me to do; I am slowly moving over to other projects. I may come back one day - who knows.

Thankfully I know where the door is so I don't have to rely on directions from Ageless, and not to worry, I won't let it hit me on the butt on the way out. By the way, that was truly one of the dumbest moves I've ever seen from a forum mod.

Thanks for all the fish ;)

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

I don't care what the credits are. Just don't tell me I've given time to the project and then tell me that because of a screw up on Berkeley's end which gave validate errors, as happens every time they shut down for maintenance, I get 0 credit for several WUs. That's all we ask for. Credit for the work we've done. None of the other BOINC projects I run treat their users like that. Never mind that one of my team mates' valid work (a portion) is classic SETI was discounted in the end and no one would get back to us to explain. Eric tried. Matt was "too busy".

So, tell me, as leader of one of the largest clubs, why do I tell my members to keep running this program? Many of us run Einstein or Rosetta. We don't see these problem with those projects. The administrators and developers listen to the users.

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Join Team Starfire
BOINC Chat

Pappa,
Thank you for your reasoned response. I appreciate that you are one of the few urging people to stay on and give SE some time.

I'm not cutting back on Seti because of the credit issue. I believe the credit issue is just a symptom of a bigger problem. I'm not getting more credits doing WCG or Rosetta, for example.

Nor would I ever think that little ole me is important to Seti. On the contrary, I know I have no say. There have been a couple of problems building for a long time. One is too many users on Seti tieing up all that equipment and bandwidth. The other is the need to get people to try other projects. Releasing SE with this credit system is the perfect solution. Fewer Seti users hogging resources and some users driven to move to other projects.

I do appreciate your efforts in urging people to stay on and your efforts in urging donations. You are a gentleman. I only wish others in this forum would follow your example.

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Proud member of Team Starfire World BOINC

I really do not want these "super crunchers" to quit and leave Seti either. But their attitude of "I'm gonna take all my computers and go home" is just childish. Some calm restraint while some research goes on in the background is exactly what is needed here. Perhaps there is room for improvement on the credit issue but research is needed first to identify exactly what.

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Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....

Kinguni

This is interesting, you state you do not care about credits. You do care about Validator issues... This is normally after an outage... That is a Problem worth "Fixing!" The hardware that is running Seti BOINC is Old... So besides the Database Backup, the weekly outage allows for updates and other things... I have quietly reported other issues associated with what you are talking about.

Now as far as projects ignoring what "users" say, all are guilty! It is because "we" users are stupid and they have a project to run... Who has time for any of the crap that shows up in the Forums? Over time there are "users" that become trusted and when an issue shows up they drop the issue into a listserve or a private email address that gets attention... Most Users never see these and do not care, nor should you... Cross Projects there are many people that watch and send alerts...

So if You have an issue, Please post it with as much information as you can... Others will insure that it gets relayed... and ask more question as needed...

I don't care what the credits are. Just don't tell me I've given time to the project and then tell me that because of a screw up on Berkeley's end which gave validate errors, as happens every time they shut down for maintenance, I get 0 credit for several WUs. That's all we ask for. Credit for the work we've done. None of the other BOINC projects I run treat their users like that. Never mind that one of my team mates' valid work (a portion) is classic SETI was discounted in the end and no one would get back to us to explain. Eric tried. Matt was "too busy".

So, tell me, as leader of one of the largest clubs, why do I tell my members to keep running this program? Many of us run Einstein or Rosetta. We don't see these problem with those projects. The administrators and developers listen to the users.
Now for this part, many of the developers try to read what is happening. They watch and after having been beaten up many times are caustion about what is said... I do not blame them... If something valid is said they look... They fix, and hopefully is is siliently delivered to your computer so it never happens again.

Being a realist, "we" need to move to new BOINc Core Clients and watch and listen... Unfortuantely, the silent majority are running in automatic... So the problem becomes the teams in a "credit race" now need to take responsibilty to insure that the members are getting the latest news... This also means taht they have to formulate strategy to keep the "team" moving ahead in the credit race... If they are not taking time to keep in contact they they are WRONG! Cjanges happen no matter what project! If Someone is not watching and reporting, They are WRONG!

scrape as I put my soap box away...

Pappa

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

m00kie

One of the things that was stated "long ago" is that with more users and more computers the strain on the old hardware was becoming too much!
So now Seti Enhanced looks more closely at each Workunit and reports the Results. This is also part of the transtion to where when a Result is returned that the "Real Time Analysis" is that this is good to look or is just noise...

At a point in time Seti Classic Pointed to Results that were "promising." Until they can get over 8 to Xpower results cataloged... Oh sorry that is in the budget that they asked our help for... And still keep things going... Then one of my favorite sayings come into play "Shit Happens!" Why it happened is to be determined... Responsibility gets assigned from there...

So over the years I have donated over a million computer hours... Yes with Seti BOINC it gets harder to prove... I still keep trying... I guess that is the Important Part!

So the stupid questions becomes is BOINCSynergy going to quit because of Credits? I think not! They kicked my butt in Seti Beta as at a point in time I (me) was the very close to the Top Teams all three of us (me, myself and I).
Now I am only number 8th, if you are in a Credit Race you missed the chance!

Pappa

Pappa,
Thank you for your reasoned response. I appreciate that you are one of the few urging people to stay on and give SE some time.

I'm not cutting back on Seti because of the credit issue. I believe the credit issue is just a symptom of a bigger problem. I'm not getting more credits doing WCG or Rosetta, for example.

Nor would I ever think that little ole me is important to Seti. On the contrary, I know I have no say. There have been a couple of problems building for a long time. One is too many users on Seti tieing up all that equipment and bandwidth. The other is the need to get people to try other projects. Releasing SE with this credit system is the perfect solution. Fewer Seti users hogging resources and some users driven to move to other projects.

I do appreciate your efforts in urging people to stay on and your efforts in urging donations. You are a gentleman. I only wish others in this forum would follow your example.

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Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

Just a thought, but next time a project wishes to update their application, instead of running a trial, should they just release it straight into the main project and issue a few percent of their units to test the new app.

The figures on BoincStats show that only 0.4% of the hosts registered on Seti bothered to register on the Enhanced trial. By allocating 2% of the units on the main site to new apps, five times more units would have had a chance of being processed and the database of units that could have been used to analysis the effect of credit with different hardware/OS combinations could have made a big difference.

From my own perspective, I would say that on Beta not enough low and very Low AR units, and possibly in other area's, were crunched and therefore there wasn't enough feedback to Eric K so that adjustment could be made to the credit formula before release here.

Andy

The figures on BoincStats show that only 0.4% of the hosts registered on Seti bothered to register on the Enhanced trial.

0.4% should have been more than enough for a good well planned trial if the data base they ran against was selected to include good samples from all ranges, especially the far extremes, and from quite to active and to known noisy areas. And that had known results (and errors) from the prior versions to compare against. If they just took random tapes there is no way to get a valid test. You only do that as the last test. Like Proofing any code as each part of it is written, a test has to examine and exercise all the possible boundary conditions, and you can not do that with just random selected data in a small sample.

The figures on BoincStats show that only 0.4% of the hosts registered on Seti bothered to register on the Enhanced trial.

0.4% should have been more than enough for a good well planned trial if the data base they ran against was selected to include good samples from all ranges, especially the far extremes, and from quite to active and to known noisy areas. And that had known results (and errors) from the prior versions to compare against. If they just took random tapes there is no way to get a valid test. You only do that as the last test. Like Proofing any code as each part of it is written, a test has to examine and exercise all the possible boundary conditions, and you can not do that with just random selected data in a small sample.

Unfortunately a largish proportion of those that signed for Beta were like the average person that signs up to BOINC/Project, downloads some unit(s) maybe completes one or two and then does no more. In the end my guess would be about a quarter did work regularly on a low resource setting, with no more that 200 users doing significant work. So in real terms probably got equivalent of 100 computers, mainly windows NT variants. Therefore the testing across ar range was limited, and things like the win9x timer problem was only seen on a few computers, occasionally, you might see it once or twice if you stop/start crunching 10 times. Thats why I dug out old P2 300MHz and Win98 to increase chances of seeing if it can be fixed. We are still testing. Had one unit that took nearly 100hrs to complete.

Andy

I will add further insult to injury... So while You Spend thousands on Computers! You can not spare $20.00 to donate to keep Seti Alive, now you are complaining that they are not doing what you want; I have less sympathy... Well, YOU are Killing Your "Cash Cow!" As the rest of the BOINC projects migrate to the "leveled playing field," I guess that BOINC Projects will take on a whole new look...

So once again, everyone take a moment to cool down!

Big assumption there poppa, considering that a large number of my team mates and members of other teams voicing their concerns are indeed donators. Many just elected not to advertise it with a little green star.

But I agree that EVERYONE, including the naysayers need to cool down. I have become so upset over the treatment we are receiving here that I have sent an e-mail to Dr. Dan Werthimer, Chief Scientist of Seti@Home, asking him to please have someone from the project moderate this thread and put a stop to the abuse we are getting. We only want to be heard by project management and have our concerns addressed and the treatment we are getting instead is deplorable.

@Daniel Schaalma,
Bud I am all for your 48 hour protest. I have some friends on another team who are also not happy with this and will pass the word to them as well. Just name a date and time and I am sure they can get the majority of their teammates to participate.

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I have sent an e-mail to Dr. Dan Werthimer, Chief Scientist of Seti@Home, asking him to please have someone from the project moderate this thread and put a stop to the abuse we are getting.

Abuse?

We only want to be heard by project management and have our concerns addressed and the treatment we are getting instead is deplorable.

The treatment you're getting is deplorable???
Have a look at your own behaviour & attitude.

*wanders off shaking head in disbelief*

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Grant
Darwin NT

I have sent an e-mail to Dr. Dan Werthimer, Chief Scientist of Seti@Home, asking him to please have someone from the project moderate this thread and put a stop to the abuse we are getting.

Abuse?

We only want to be heard by project management and have our concerns addressed and the treatment we are getting instead is deplorable.

The treatment you're getting is deplorable???
Have a look at your own behaviour & attitude.

*wanders off shaking head in disbelief*

The credit thing is on low priority i think.

It doesn´t matter.

I´ve 392058 cobbles would i be more worth if i had 2 million.
Dont believe it.

regards Mike

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With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.