Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?

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KB7RZF
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Message 299442 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 4:29:32 UTC - in response to Message 299436.  



He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


... and while we're on the subject of stupidity, why penalize the project for what one participant says?

At least in theory, we're all pushing for the same thing, and in a way, we're all on the outside looking in.

If Eric Korpela says something and you don't like it, fine. Adjust your resource share.

If I say something, consider the source. I'm a participant, just like you, and just like Pappa.

Sorry, it wasn't just the one post. A Mod yanked some as I red X'ed a couple that IMO were out of line. When those in charge manage to take control of these forums from the inmates I will probably reward them.


Yet, if the idiot posts are so bad that a moderator will yank them, you'll still penalize the project for something someone said that doesn't work for the project.

We as a group seem to be way too self-important.

To me it makes more sense to just add them to an ignore list, makes reading through posts a lot easier than dealing with the BS. :-)
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Message 299449 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 4:31:42 UTC - in response to Message 299340.  

ABT Chuck

You could have stated "Pappa you are out of line," and I can accept that.. When I realized that I was a bit out of line I acknowledged that... Important Work is still happening in Seti Enhanced Beta... If you wear the tag you are supposed to watch... Yes it gets to be tough to "watch many places" at the same time... Many here that answer most of the questions are "here and there" and informed... I have spent the bulk of my time there (Beta)... I have migrated most of my "less than twenty computers" to Seti BOINC Enhanced SANS Optimized... That takes a lot of time, I am littered with various BOINC Core Clients from 4.45 to 5.47 (some of those upgrades need to happen tonight to 5.4.9)...

So my first concern is making sure things happen here, also testing Crunch3r's Optimzed App to make sure it is ready... Anyone have a spare day that they can loan me?

Pappa

ABT Chuck and Ghz & Co.

Sorry, it was a bit pointed...

Pappa

[quote

I stopped reading and crunching there when Eric posted enhanced would be brought over in limited distro to the main project.

Your response to Ghz just seemed way out of place considering how much work you have put into enhanced.


I thought I did. You had a lot of nerve to respond in that manner came immediately to mind.
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Message 299465 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 4:40:20 UTC - in response to Message 299442.  


We as a group seem to be way too self-important.

To me it makes more sense to just add them to an ignore list, makes reading through posts a lot easier than dealing with the BS. :-)

I'm not really talking to ABT Chuck. He's clearly stated his position.

What I'm saying is, we're all along for the ride. When we express our opinions (or "shoot off our mouths" -- it's all in how you conjugate the verb) it doesn't really mean much of anything.

Your mileage may vary.

The opinions of those posting do not reflect the opinions of Project Management, UC Berkeley, The Regents of the University of California, or anyone else.

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ABT Chuck P
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Message 299473 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 4:44:58 UTC - in response to Message 299436.  





Sorry, it wasn't just the one post. A Mod yanked some as I red X'ed a couple that IMO were out of line. When those in charge manage to take control of these forums from the inmates I will probably reward them.


Yet, if the idiot posts are so bad that a moderator will yank them, you'll still penalize the project for something someone said that doesn't work for the project.

We as a group seem to be way too self-important.

We participants ARE important to this and any other projects we choose to donate cycles to. Seti wants cash donations to keep the project afloat. Many corporate donors would think no way after viewing these forums. Professionalism went out the door years ago
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Message 299614 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 10:55:15 UTC - in response to Message 299473.  

Many corporate donors would think no way after viewing these forums.

That would indicate their level of stupidity if it were the case.


Professionalism went out the door years ago

This is a forum availbe for the use of all those that are involved with BIONC. As long as the discussion remains genrally within the bounds of the group then why should anyone become involved in moderating it?
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Message 299834 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 17:03:03 UTC - in response to Message 299340.  


So my first concern is making sure things happen here, also testing Crunch3r's Optimzed App to make sure it is ready... Anyone have a spare day that they can loan me?

Pappa

I got one coming up two sundays from next year that I can give you, don't know if you'll still need it then , lol.
98SE XP2500+ @ 2.1 GHz Boinc v5.8.8

And God said"Let there be light."But then the program crashed because he was trying to access the 'light' property of a NULL universe pointer.
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Message 299856 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 17:23:37 UTC - in response to Message 299473.  


Sorry, it wasn't just the one post. A Mod yanked some as I red X'ed a couple that IMO were out of line. When those in charge manage to take control of these forums from the inmates I will probably reward them.


Yet, if the idiot posts are so bad that a moderator will yank them, you'll still penalize the project for something someone said that doesn't work for the project.

We as a group seem to be way too self-important.

We participants ARE important to this and any other projects we choose to donate cycles to. Seti wants cash donations to keep the project afloat. Many corporate donors would think no way after viewing these forums. Professionalism went out the door years ago

I don't know about you, but I'm not a "professional volunteer" -- it is the wrong standard.

... and I suspect most of the donors who might look at the forums will see that those here are passionate about this. Some of us are exceedingly passionate, to the point that we're in danger of losing perspective.

Anyone who would rate the project as a whole based on the vast minority of participants (maybe 1% of all SETI crunchers??) is probably not a serious prospect.
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Message 300107 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 21:18:50 UTC

anyway...back to the thread..


Whilst there is no optimized client, noone can say whether it is or isnt for sure.


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Message 300125 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 21:51:56 UTC - in response to Message 300107.  

anyway...back to the thread..


Whilst there is no optimized client, noone can say whether it is or isnt for sure.



??? Sure there's one ;)

You should checkout http://www.guntec.de/Crunch3r/index.html




Join BOINC United now!
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Message 300208 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 23:07:52 UTC - in response to Message 298127.  
Last modified: 8 May 2006, 23:09:15 UTC


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Message 300365 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 23:36:27 UTC

"Is Enhanced Credit Fair?"

The New Seti Boinc Enhanced has doubled my WU processing time and cut in half my claimed Credit (using the stock client).

Its about the science here and the possibility of someday finding life outside our own little galaxy, so I'll wait to pass judgement on the New Enhanced version, but unfortunately I think this will discourage the use of some older machines.
D.
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Eric Korpela Project Donor
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Message 300434 - Posted: 9 May 2006, 0:37:43 UTC - in response to Message 300365.  




"Is Enhanced Credit Fair?"

The New Seti Boinc Enhanced has doubled my WU processing time and cut in half my claimed Credit (using the stock client).


Yes, on many machines it will reduce your claimed credit. The question is "Does it reduce your granted credit?"

I tried my best to make the answer to the second question be "No" on average at least.

Eric
@SETIEric@qoto.org (Mastodon)

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Message 301039 - Posted: 9 May 2006, 15:02:47 UTC

As the 'credits' are merely for bragging rights, and to see how you stack up against opther systems out there...I don't see the real fuss about what "you" are getting beyond being part of a worthwhile project, and knowing you are a valued contributor.
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Message 304135 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 17:42:43 UTC

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. It will be fair to some and not to others. The fear I have is that there may be a mass exodus of people away from Seti. Many people crunch solely to help the science (and some claim to do so), but many more crunch for the competition and the bragging rights and they will be the ones who will leave when everybody starts getting the same credit regardless of the time spent and CPU used. The current enhanced credit system will remove the incentive to update to faster machines which coupled with people leaving the project is ultimately hurting the project. IMHO, the project should be setup to attract people, not run them off.

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Message 304142 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 17:58:08 UTC - in response to Message 304135.  
Last modified: 13 May 2006, 18:13:01 UTC

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. It will be fair to some and not to others. The fear I have is that there may be a mass exodus of people away from Seti. Many people crunch solely to help the science (and some claim to do so), but many more crunch for the competition and the bragging rights and they will be the ones who will leave when everybody starts getting the same credit regardless of the time spent and CPU used. The current enhanced credit system will remove the incentive to update to faster machines which coupled with people leaving the project is ultimately hurting the project. IMHO, the project should be setup to attract people, not run them off.


Hear Hear!!! I agree 100%. Many of us nut-cases out here have invested in newer/faster systems, or upgraded our memory/processors/etc in order to gain a little more RAC (I know I have). The underlying science is a wonderful goal, however, to MANY of us, if you take the competitive spirit out of it.....you'll loose us.

I was planning on adding a couple of 940 Ds to my stable to bump my RAC up....but now, I've lost the incentive to do so......I don't really have a need for more than 5 computers to do what I do....and three of the ones I'm running now are strictly SETI crunchers.

I've been at this game almost since day one, but I can save a lot of Time/$$$/electricity and aggravation by just shutting them down.


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Message 304166 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 18:58:45 UTC

On my tables I am seeing half-hour workunits being awarded almost as much credit as two-hour units. Any explanation for this disparity? I still haven't gotten Crunch3r's Enhanced optimized cruncher to work for me, yet, and I don't think the graph tray explains it either. Maybe the graph tray slows newer processors down less (than no screensavers) than earlier weaker ones.
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Message 304170 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 19:01:34 UTC - in response to Message 304135.  

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. It will be fair to some and not to others. […] The current enhanced credit system will remove the incentive to update to faster machines […]

I don’t see why it should. Faster machines, with greater throughput in Flops, will receive more credit per CPU-hour accordingly. That principle hasn't changed at all with the new version, the differences being confined to finer details of how the work is evaluated.

I suppose some slower systems with inflated benchmarks (whether due to software or hardware quirks, or to deliberate ‘tinkering’) will lose their relative advantage over accurately rated, faster ones, but I’d argue that the former were ‘unfair’ in the first place. (That’s not to say that I disapprove of calibration via benchmark-tweaking where it suits the actual performance of a particular optimized app, bringing its claims into line with those of an otherwise similar ‘stock’ setup, but outside that context it seems indistinguishable from cheating.)
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Message 304178 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 19:09:51 UTC - in response to Message 304142.  
Last modified: 13 May 2006, 19:20:45 UTC

Fairness, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder. It will be fair to some and not to others. The fear I have is that there may be a mass exodus of people away from Seti. Many people crunch solely to help the science (and some claim to do so), but many more crunch for the competition and the bragging rights and they will be the ones who will leave when everybody starts getting the same credit regardless of the time spent and CPU used. The current enhanced credit system will remove the incentive to update to faster machines which coupled with people leaving the project is ultimately hurting the project. IMHO, the project should be setup to attract people, not run them off.


Hear Hear!!! I agree 100%. Many of us nut-cases out here have invested in newer/faster systems, or upgraded our memory/processors/etc in order to gain a little more RAC (I know I have). The underlying science is a wonderful goal, however, to MANY of us, if you take the competitive spirit out of it.....you'll loose us.

I was planning on adding a couple of 940 Ds to my stable to bump my RAC up....but now, I've lost the incentive to do so......I don't really have a need for more than 5 computers to do what I do....and three of the ones I'm running now are strictly SETI crunchers.

I've been at this game almost since day one, but I can save a lot of Time/$$$/electricity and aggravation by just shutting them down.


Sorry....just had to add a bit more (I'm on a roll....)

While I admire the hard work and the dedication of the developers in this community, there seems to be a severe dis-connect in regards to your audience (sounds like the Politicians in Wash DC: see .Sig). The people you rely on to do your crunching are VOLUNTEERS who donate their resources to your project....different things motivate different people.....and I'm afraid there seem to be some "cliques" that are driving the debate; I see too many posts from people that treat this project as if it were their own private club, and they set the standards. You really can't afford to alienate your "workforce"....

I normally just lurk and don't post....but this has finally gotten to me.
OK.....I feel better now.....
rm -r /Dev/Rant/


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Message 304226 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 19:48:42 UTC
Last modified: 13 May 2006, 19:51:26 UTC

One of the things that I have stated is that there people that are in Seti Enhanced Beta that Are Still Working on a Credit Analysis. This not only affects the Normal Angle Range AR 0.42xx Workunit but the one with the odd AR's that claim "inconsistent credit"

If we look at Credit Soup, because of Optimized BOINC Core Client, UnOptimized BOINC Core Client, Optimized Seti Applications, UnOptimized Seti Applications and those depended on Benchmarks. Those Benchmarks were what was driving many projects... Some Projects did thier own credit to more closely "level the playing field."

Now that the BOINC Core Client 5.4.9 is moving to Seti and Other Projects then various developers will also be looking at the Credit Soup. The Measurement of Floating Point OPerations (Fpops) more closely levels that playing field across the board. Then User RAC will be based on How Fast you can return Results and How Many Computers you have... The Credit Race will not be a kid on a skate board racing a Mazarati...

So that all said, I for one do not feel that the credits currently being granted are correct compared to Seti BOINC... Eric was working the best estimate he could with limited information. Patience and getting everyone "Transitioned/Migrated" with enough returned Results is part of the battle... Then a SQL Query can be constructed to look at a Machine "Before and After" to see what numbers are Real... That done he can quickly change numbers recompile and a new application drops into place for those that have not loaded an Optimized Application.

So Yes, as I watch after moving machines from Seti Enhanced Beta to here saw my "average credit" rise and then start falling as more enhanced workunits were completed and returned as "results" I have also seen my "Pending Credit" rise slightly due to the fact that it now takes longer for the Results to Return... Now until a sufficient number of machines are working on Seti Enhanced full time you would expect a Drop in "average credit"... After a week/two weeks you would expect to see an increase as more people are returning those results... One very BAD Thing is those with 10 Day Caches could mean that they got it today but will not work on for tens days... It ends up as a Pedning Credit...

The best thing to do is (atleast for now) cut your large caches down and let Seti Enhanced get in and working... Then we can look at "average credit." Then people have valid information to look at to determine if the credit granted is correct... For the most part this is affecting "everyone" equally...

Pappa

Edit speeling who cares..

Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

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Message 304236 - Posted: 13 May 2006, 19:54:39 UTC

With Seti-Enhanced coming online many of the traditional means of "beating the system" will become obsolete.

For years many have routinely aborted work units with high angle ranges for the simple fact that they take longer to crunch. Enhanced work units remove the incentive for this practice because you are awarded credit for the work you actually perform. 8 work units that take 1 hour each will earn the same credits as 1 work unit that takes 8 hours to crunch. Also each machine that successfully crunches a particular work unit will all be awarded the same amount of credit whether it takes 30 minutes or 12 hours. After all it's the same work unit!

Now the only way to gain a competitive advantage over another user is to bring more machines online, which is as it should be. Use of the application software that is further enhanced from Crunch3r or Trux will only have a modest improvment in speed. Nothing like the 4x improvements which were previously available. In other words the stock Boinc/Seti application software is allready optimized a great deal by the very same folks. By the way, thanks to Crunch3r, Trux, TMR and the MANY others who have invested their time and money to make Boinc and Seti a better hobby.

I believe that we have a great base of users here. I don't expect a mass migration to other projects where there is a chance of greater rewards. Those that do....well it's there choice isn't it. As for me....I only run one project and that is obviously Seti. If any other projects come online that are searching the sky for anything, count me in. I mean planets, black holes, ET or whatever.

The day Seti-Enhanced comes online at 100% will be a great day!


Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....
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