Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?

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Michael Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 298619 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 13:24:01 UTC - in response to Message 298586.  

Are the credits fair??

That's the question here. The first thing needed to figure this out is the intent of the Boinc developers. Dr. Anderson answered this when he was asked about enhanced credit by Eric K. Dr. Anderson stated that "parity between projects is the most important". he said nothing about comparisons between seti and SE. We would have to campare the cobblestones/hour for every project and compare them. This would have to exclude any optimized Core Client use, as they (so far) have only adjusted the mechanisms used to claim credit.

If a project grants credit that is close to that of the other projects, then it IS fair.

Ever consider that you may have been claiming too much earlier, and should be grateful you actually got some of those claims granted?





Yup...
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Message 298718 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 15:29:08 UTC - in response to Message 298222.  

My CPUs DO use cpu affinity. This is a multiprocessor machine (2 hyperthreaded Xeons) and the BOINC app I use has been modified to use cpu affinity... but I still dont see why the same machine should take 50% longer on one work unit vs another if its doing the "EXACT SAME WORK".


Just noticed there is a similar discussion over at Einstein see Is n´t it rediculous? 1 cpu faster than 2 cpus?

Andy
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Message 298767 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 16:14:12 UTC - in response to Message 298344.  


As I have a volunteer tag, big whoop. As you've mentioned the hostility on the boards is rediculous.

He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


Why should he have asked in Beta? Who cares where he asks? Its a free board to do as one pleases. Deal with it.

And I'm sorry your SETI resource share will take another hit. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. If you don't like it that much, why not detach and not come back?
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Michael Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 298770 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 16:16:18 UTC - in response to Message 298344.  
Last modified: 7 May 2006, 16:18:16 UTC




I never got my volunteer tag.

*sniff*

Just ribbin ya!@ lol


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ABT Chuck P
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Message 298795 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 16:41:38 UTC - in response to Message 298767.  


As I have a volunteer tag, big whoop. As you've mentioned the hostility on the boards is rediculous.

He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


Why should he have asked in Beta? Who cares where he asks? Its a free board to do as one pleases. Deal with it.

And I'm sorry your SETI resource share will take another hit. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. If you don't like it that much, why not detach and not come back?

LOL, didn't you question his tag and where he should have asked first?
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Message 298797 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 16:42:01 UTC

not running seti until the sort out the time per wu or someone releases a decent opt client.


will crunch other stuff for now.




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ABT Chuck P
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Message 298798 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 16:42:55 UTC - in response to Message 298770.  




I never got my volunteer tag.

*sniff*

Just ribbin ya!@ lol


Would give you mine if I could.
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KB7RZF
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Message 298803 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 16:49:39 UTC - in response to Message 298795.  


As I have a volunteer tag, big whoop. As you've mentioned the hostility on the boards is rediculous.

He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


Why should he have asked in Beta? Who cares where he asks? Its a free board to do as one pleases. Deal with it.

And I'm sorry your SETI resource share will take another hit. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. If you don't like it that much, why not detach and not come back?

LOL, didn't you question his tag and where he should have asked first?

I didn't question anything about his tag. I simply stated he has one. From my post:
Theres been a wealth of information passed between these boards and the Beta boards. Pappa has been one big advocate in making sure people know about it. He's been one hell of a driving force over there. Seeing as the person he addressed has a volunteer tag, why couldn't he have read the boards, and asked there? Obviously he is testing the BETA version correct?


So, yes, he could have asked there, but, instead, he chose to ask here. Who cares? If it was that big of a deal, someone would have directed him to the BETA boards. Pappa simply answered his questions, and now you make a big deal out of absolutely nothing.

And to quote my good friend Siran:
STFU and go away!!!!PLONK!!!! Another one into the ignore bin. :-)
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ABT Chuck P
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Message 298821 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 17:12:46 UTC - in response to Message 298803.  


As I have a volunteer tag, big whoop. As you've mentioned the hostility on the boards is rediculous.

He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


Why should he have asked in Beta? Who cares where he asks? Its a free board to do as one pleases. Deal with it.

And I'm sorry your SETI resource share will take another hit. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. If you don't like it that much, why not detach and not come back?

LOL, didn't you question his tag and where he should have asked first?

I didn't question anything about his tag. I simply stated he has one. From my post:
Theres been a wealth of information passed between these boards and the Beta boards. Pappa has been one big advocate in making sure people know about it. He's been one hell of a driving force over there. Seeing as the person he addressed has a volunteer tag, why couldn't he have read the boards, and asked there? Obviously he is testing the BETA version correct?


So, yes, he could have asked there, but, instead, he chose to ask here. Who cares? If it was that big of a deal, someone would have directed him to the BETA boards. Pappa simply answered his questions, and now you make a big deal out of absolutely nothing.

And to quote my good friend Siran:
STFU and go away!!!!PLONK!!!! Another one into the ignore bin. :-)

Yep you pointed it out and asked why he didn't ask there instead. I'm dealing with it, seems like you can't.

I couldn't care less about your friend siran. He's been in my plonk list for ages. Thanks for letting me know he wrote.
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Message 298850 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 17:38:31 UTC - in response to Message 298341.  

ABT Chuck and Ghz & Co.

Sorry, it was a bit pointed...

However it seems that the last two weeks or so have been spent talking about Credit Calibration and other things important... Like the improvement from 5.10 to 5.11 and then verifying changes with 5.12..

One (actually several) important thread in the Number Crunching Forum talks about completion times... This give people a chance to see what to expect out of a PII, PIII, P4, Xeons or AMD XP's or 64's

So Users that are running Win 95 or Win98 if you have issues/problems please post them with as much information as possible...

Pappa

[quote]Ghz & Co.

This will be long, take a moment to read it...

<snip>

The other part is we now have people asking qeustions that decided to wait until Seti Enhanced was released... You had the chance to help so You would Know... You ignored that... GO READ THE SETI ENHANCED BETA NUMBER CRUNCHING FORUM then come back to ask intelligent questions!

Pappa

Some nerve there Pappa. Blame folks for not participating in a Beta project then expect them to go read those boards. This project gets more lame by the moment.




Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

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Eric Korpela Project Donor
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Message 298859 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 17:46:50 UTC - in response to Message 298171.  


Thanks Eric, I like the new method, but I have 2 other questions:

-How the total number of floating point operations it's calculated? That calculation can slow down the client?


The calculation isn't done too often so it shouldn't be significant compared to other floating point calculation. The typical increments are large. (For example when FLOPs for an FFT are added, 5*N*log2(N) is added (where N is usually 128K). This an approximation for FLOPs used in calculating an FFT.


-What can happen with optimized client? If they are not only recompiled but they have code optimization (like crunch3r's client), the claimed credits can change?


That's really up to the optimizer. If they reduce the number of FLOPs they can also reduce the number added to the FLOP counter if they desire. I would guess that most will leave the counter as is.

Eric
@SETIEric@qoto.org (Mastodon)

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ABT Chuck P
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Message 298871 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 18:02:25 UTC - in response to Message 298850.  

ABT Chuck and Ghz & Co.

Sorry, it was a bit pointed...


Pappa

[quote

I stopped reading and crunching there when Eric posted enhanced would be brought over in limited distro to the main project.

Your response to Ghz just seemed way out of place considering how much work you have put into enhanced.
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Message 298939 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 19:14:43 UTC - in response to Message 298859.  


-What can happen with optimized client? If they are not only recompiled but they have code optimization (like crunch3r's client), the claimed credits can change?


That's really up to the optimizer. If they reduce the number of FLOPs they can also reduce the number added to the FLOP counter if they desire. I would guess that most will leave the counter as is.

Eric

Anybody who is able to build the application can of course modify the FLOP counts. Months ago I posted a message to the boinc_dev list noting that possibility and suggesting it might eventually be necessary to not grant credit to those whose claims are out of line.

I hope all those who do their own builds recognize that the new method for credit claiming can only remain equitable if the FLOP counting is standard.
                                                                Joe
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Michael Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 298942 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 19:19:37 UTC - in response to Message 298939.  


-What can happen with optimized client? If they are not only recompiled but they have code optimization (like crunch3r's client), the claimed credits can change?


That's really up to the optimizer. If they reduce the number of FLOPs they can also reduce the number added to the FLOP counter if they desire. I would guess that most will leave the counter as is.

Eric

Anybody who is able to build the application can of course modify the FLOP counts. Months ago I posted a message to the boinc_dev list noting that possibility and suggesting it might eventually be necessary to not grant credit to those whose claims are out of line.

I hope all those who do their own builds recognize that the new method for credit claiming can only remain equitable if the FLOP counting is standard.
                                                                Joe


Good advice...(+)

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Message 299193 - Posted: 7 May 2006, 23:30:39 UTC - in response to Message 298859.  
Last modified: 7 May 2006, 23:31:05 UTC


Thanks Eric, I like the new method, but I have 2 other questions:

-How the total number of floating point operations it's calculated? That calculation can slow down the client?


The calculation isn't done too often so it shouldn't be significant compared to other floating point calculation. The typical increments are large. (For example when FLOPs for an FFT are added, 5*N*log2(N) is added (where N is usually 128K). This an approximation for FLOPs used in calculating an FFT.


Ok, very well :)


-What can happen with optimized client? If they are not only recompiled but they have code optimization (like crunch3r's client), the claimed credits can change?


That's really up to the optimizer. If they reduce the number of FLOPs they can also reduce the number added to the FLOP counter if they desire. I would guess that most will leave the counter as is.

Eric


I hope too :P

Thanks for the info Erik!
GHz
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Message 299315 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 2:23:33 UTC - in response to Message 298344.  



He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


... and while we're on the subject of stupidity, why penalize the project for what one participant says?

At least in theory, we're all pushing for the same thing, and in a way, we're all on the outside looking in.

If Eric Korpela says something and you don't like it, fine. Adjust your resource share.

If I say something, consider the source. I'm a participant, just like you, and just like Pappa.
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Message 299340 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 2:57:49 UTC - in response to Message 298871.  

ABT Chuck

You could have stated "Pappa you are out of line," and I can accept that.. When I realized that I was a bit out of line I acknowledged that... Important Work is still happening in Seti Enhanced Beta... If you wear the tag you are supposed to watch... Yes it gets to be tough to "watch many places" at the same time... Many here that answer most of the questions are "here and there" and informed... I have spent the bulk of my time there (Beta)... I have migrated most of my "less than twenty computers" to Seti BOINC Enhanced SANS Optimized... That takes a lot of time, I am littered with various BOINC Core Clients from 4.45 to 5.47 (some of those upgrades need to happen tonight to 5.4.9)...

So my first concern is making sure things happen here, also testing Crunch3r's Optimzed App to make sure it is ready... Anyone have a spare day that they can loan me?

Pappa

ABT Chuck and Ghz & Co.

Sorry, it was a bit pointed...

Pappa

[quote

I stopped reading and crunching there when Eric posted enhanced would be brought over in limited distro to the main project.

Your response to Ghz just seemed way out of place considering how much work you have put into enhanced.


Please consider a Donation to the Seti Project.

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Michael Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 299342 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 3:00:41 UTC - in response to Message 299315.  



He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


... and while we're on the subject of stupidity, why penalize the project for what one participant says?

At least in theory, we're all pushing for the same thing, and in a way, we're all on the outside looking in.

If Eric Korpela says something and you don't like it, fine. Adjust your resource share.

If I say something, consider the source. I'm a participant, just like you, and just like Pappa.


you damn right.

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ABT Chuck P
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Message 299432 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 4:24:37 UTC - in response to Message 299315.  



He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


... and while we're on the subject of stupidity, why penalize the project for what one participant says?

At least in theory, we're all pushing for the same thing, and in a way, we're all on the outside looking in.

If Eric Korpela says something and you don't like it, fine. Adjust your resource share.

If I say something, consider the source. I'm a participant, just like you, and just like Pappa.

Sorry, it wasn't just the one post. A Mod yanked some as I red X'ed a couple that IMO were out of line. When those in charge manage to take control of these forums from the inmates I will probably reward them.
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Message 299436 - Posted: 8 May 2006, 4:27:35 UTC - in response to Message 299432.  



He could have asked in Beta but chose to ask here in its released forum. My Seti resource share will be taking another hit thanks to your response.


... and while we're on the subject of stupidity, why penalize the project for what one participant says?

At least in theory, we're all pushing for the same thing, and in a way, we're all on the outside looking in.

If Eric Korpela says something and you don't like it, fine. Adjust your resource share.

If I say something, consider the source. I'm a participant, just like you, and just like Pappa.

Sorry, it wasn't just the one post. A Mod yanked some as I red X'ed a couple that IMO were out of line. When those in charge manage to take control of these forums from the inmates I will probably reward them.


Yet, if the idiot posts are so bad that a moderator will yank them, you'll still penalize the project for something someone said that doesn't work for the project.

We as a group seem to be way too self-important.
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Message boards : Number crunching : Seti Enhanced Credit Fair?


 
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