When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?

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Message 2135386 - Posted: 2 May 2024, 8:50:19 UTC
Last modified: 2 May 2024, 8:51:36 UTC

Well the protests on university grounds have started here and have been mainly peaceful except for down in Melbourne (as usual) where Pro-Israeli demonstrators wanted to have a bit of a biff up, though the police soon moved them on without resorting to the violent scenes as seen overseas (most especially in the U.S. where cops always seem to go overboard).

Australian students join US university movement with pro-Palestinian encampments.
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Message 2135391 - Posted: 2 May 2024, 12:11:58 UTC - in response to Message 2135366.  

Note that there are 'Palestinians' who are Israeli, along with people of various other religions other than Jewish.
Before 1964 the label "Palestinians" was hardly known. Until then "Palestinian" meant all inhabitants on the territory of former British Palestine: Muslims, Christians and Jews. The Proclamation of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) redefined the label and excluded all immigrants since 1948. Therein PLO also claimed the infinite inheritance of "Palestinian" nationality and refugee status to future generations, regardless of their citizenship, place of birth or residence. In 1968 after the Six-Day War the definition was further restricted to exclude all non-Arab immigrants since the first Zionists arrived (~1890s). PLO claims all of 'British Palestine'; the ultimate goal to liberate "their homelands" from invaders; a one-state solution. This definition is accepted today by UN, UNRWA to recognize 14 million Palestinians around the globe.

There can't be peace without a credible revision of these fundamental definitions by PLO. There won't be such solution either with Benji's Likud pursuing their "Greater Israel" ideology.
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Message 2135395 - Posted: 2 May 2024, 17:14:49 UTC - in response to Message 2135338.  
Last modified: 2 May 2024, 17:16:24 UTC

So I just have to take it that you support Adolf Benji and his mob in their slaughter of innocents, the destruction of their homes as well as the theft of their land.

The world is just getting to be sadder place be. :-(
No, I don't think you have to. I don't support Benji nor is a mob 'slaughtering' innocents there. Sorry, but I politely reject that. There's a war in which innocents die and houses are destroyed; in which both sides commit horrible crimes, as in each war. Historians (may can) assess scope and severity for both sides in the future. There is no such thing as an ethical, clean war. Previous attempts, like Geneva Convention, Hague regulations failed here.

But you may want to disagree with me on my persuasion (you surely agree with most of how an alternative future should look like):
I think there is no alternative to remove Hamas from power in Gaza... and soon, so that:

  • never again a thousand Israelis are brutally murdered or tortured for months,
  • Gazans are freed from Hamas' tyranny,
  • a moderate government or a neutral occupation force ensures peace,
  • a brighter future becomes possible,
  • without an eternal cult of terror and mass murder,
  • with education instead of hate propaganda,
  • without fanatics poisoning souls of youngsters,
  • shielded from Mullahs,
  • Arab states no longer isolate themselves from Palestinians but are attracting its promising youth instead

How to get there, with as few victims as possible, but also without further decades of war and misery? I don't know.

Criticizing Israel is always easy. Would BDS (destroy Israel's international trade and economy), pro-Palestine, UN's Gutteres, UNRWA and many further billions for Gaza trace an alternative path? I can't recognize any. Hatred would continue; another Oct 7th would occur just with even more death. Some protesters demand this. So can there only be peace once Israel has been destroyed; Jews driven into the sea? Finally liberated and free of Jews Palestine would become the paradise on earth, right? Wait, there would be no further billions for Gaza, West Bank and PLO, no UNRWA, NGOs loosing funding. Palestinians must work hard for a better future; no one can or will establish them an own state. They have to want it and achieve it themselves... They better start now and oust Hamas first.

Everyone there has to recognize the reality, that of the victim families in Israel... and in Gaza and West Bank. Gandhi instead of Haniyya.

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Message 2135410 - Posted: 2 May 2024, 20:45:23 UTC

Just more police violence on full display. :-(

US police move to clear pro-Palestinian student protest encampment at UCLA in Los Angeles.

Along with more pro-Israeli violence.

Pro-Palestinian protesters attacked, hundreds arrested in New York at encampment.

All as reports of another aid convoy being hit by the IDF start to filter in.
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Message 2135416 - Posted: 3 May 2024, 0:19:44 UTC - in response to Message 2135410.  

Just more police violence on full display. :-(
US police move to clear pro-Palestinian student protest encampment at UCLA in Los Angeles.
I'm never surprised by the LAPD (Los Angeles Perjury Department) after they ran their skirmish line through a live on the air national network broadcast a few years ago injuring the on air talent who were in a broadcast booth. Their officers are trained to not have or use a brain.
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Message 2135438 - Posted: 3 May 2024, 9:36:53 UTC - in response to Message 2135373.  

But are they? They do not have the same rights as an Orthodox Jew.
Gary is right. There were still special rights for Orthodox (e.g. no military conscription). Israel's society have to abandon them over time. That's no 'minority' anymore. Their proportion is growing while numbers of progressive Jews resp. secular Israelis is stagnating (same sociologic effects as in other post-modern societies).

The excemption from draft service ended on Apr 1 2024. State subsidies for orthodox students at religious schools too. Benji's ultra orthodox coalition partners could not achieve a codification of these exceptions, which may endangers Benji's coalition. Source: ("tagesschau" main German TV news)
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Message 2135453 - Posted: 3 May 2024, 15:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 2135438.  

Any government that codifies discrimination will pay a terrible price, usually in blood. Even the USA with its 3/5 clause.
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Message 2135511 - Posted: 4 May 2024, 19:58:58 UTC

While most concentrate on Gaza Adolf Benji's Nazis continue their crimes in the West Bank and going mostly unnoticed.

Residents accuse Israeli forces of executions during West Bank raid.
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Message 2135530 - Posted: 5 May 2024, 20:22:30 UTC

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Message 2135551 - Posted: 6 May 2024, 9:30:35 UTC

Conditions should've been enacted months ago.

Sen. Mark Kelly: Conditions on aid to Israel would be 'appropriate' if civilian death toll in Gaza doesn't drop.

While Adolf Benji wants Palestinians to move yet again into a smaller safe zone.

IDF warns civilians in Rafah to move to humanitarian area.

Most likely so he can get better bang for his ammo (mostly supplied by the U.S. with Germany chipping in a bit as well).

It's no wonder that he doesn't want uncensored news outlets operating in the country as his war crimes are about to climb further and he doesn't want word to leak out about them.
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Message 2135557 - Posted: 6 May 2024, 15:14:04 UTC - in response to Message 2135551.  


Most likely so he can get better bang for his ammo (mostly supplied by the U.S. with Germany chipping in a bit as well).

It's no wonder that he doesn't want uncensored news outlets operating in the country as his war crimes are about to climb further and he doesn't want word to leak out about them.

Exactly.
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Message 2135558 - Posted: 6 May 2024, 17:35:34 UTC

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Message 2135566 - Posted: 6 May 2024, 22:23:05 UTC

And Adolf Benji responds.

Israel attacks Gaza after Hamas agrees ceasefire.

He doesn't want peace, he just wants everything the Palestinians have and them either gone or dead (but he prefers the last option to be the best 1).
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Message 2135586 - Posted: 7 May 2024, 12:50:01 UTC - in response to Message 2135551.  

Most likely so he can get better bang for his ammo (mostly supplied by the U.S. with Germany chipping in a bit as well).
German ammo... now we're evil too? Germany delivered 3,000 HEAT RPGs and half a million cartridges for guns and small arms. But why are RPGs and machine guns required to pursue and arrest some thousand murderers and hostage-takers in a large (peaceful) city? It's infamous to insinuate the German-supplied ammunition helped to kill innocent civilians. Germany also supplied RPGs, artillery and tank shells to Ukraine.... to kill innocents?

Between Oct 2016 and July 2017 an international (US, UK, FR, TR, Iraq) coalition freed Mossul (Iraq), inhabitated by 2.5 million, from ISIS. Tens of thousands innocent deaths. I invite everyone who criticises Israel's war against Hamas to compare these both events in detail, especially the related international attention and opinion. The difference? No Israelis or Jews involved in Mossul.

It's no wonder that he doesn't want uncensored news outlets operating in the country as his war crimes are about to climb further and he doesn't want word to leak out about them.
You suggest there were any uncensored news outlets operating in Gaza. That's not true. No one was able to report that Hamas was using hospitals as command centers, neighbourhoods as rocket bases, even though many in Gaza knew it. No need to censor in a terror state. Reporters face death for reports criticising Hamas. To the opposite: Hamas is a professional news agency themselves. "Uncensored" news outlets can either recognize this fact and seek for independent information (almost impossible). Or ignore it and distribute biased news or fabricated lies. There were also embedded AP photographers, who accompanied Hamas on motor bikes in their raid into Israel, some even holding guns. I despise such "uncensored" media... simply disgusting.

Al Jazeera is a partisan, one-sided news agency. Ten days after the Oct 7th terror, I compiled the number of all Al-Jazeera articles here that reported on Hamas' atrocities in Israel. There were only SIX. My conclusion was: Al Jazeera suppressed reports on Hamas's terror in a flood of propaganda until all that remained was the image of an evil aggressor Israel attacking Gaza for no reason. Still today, that's how the majority of Palestinians and the pro-Palestine faction in the West understand this conflict. They don't know (or don't want to admit) what happened on Oct 7th or what dimension this act of war had. Some dead Israelis... dozens... or a thousand... who cares... evil oppressors, invaders of Arabic lands... deserve to die... no matter if soldier, elderly, woman, or baby. These so-called “uncensored” media are responsible for biased, one-sided reporting, not Israel. So, I can understand why Israel is expelling Al-Jazeera, which decided to form a weapon of psychologic warfare in this conflict.
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Message 2135591 - Posted: 7 May 2024, 15:32:31 UTC - in response to Message 2135566.  

Israel attacks Gaza after Hamas agrees ceasefire.

He doesn't want peace, he just wants everything the Palestinians have and them either gone or dead (but he prefers the last option to be the best 1).
Peace agreement, agreed ceasefire, truce deal. Many different terms. The 1907 Hague (land war) agreement defines "armistice". Israel is no signatory, Palestine since 2014 is.

Regulations art. 36: An armistice suspends military operations by mutual agreement between the belligerent parties. [...]
It takes TWO to tango...

I doubt one can clearly name two bellingerents here, less so each party's obligations from an agreed armistice. Fundamental conditions are no longer met in the era of asymmetric conflicts. Who to negotiate with? Whose obligations? The 1907 Hague agreement needs an update to 21st century warfare.

Regulations art. 1: The laws, rights, and duties of war apply not only to armies, but also to militia and volunteer corps fulfilling the following conditions:

  1. to be commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
  2. to have a fixed distinctive emblem recognizable at a distance;
  3. to carry arms openly; and
  4. To conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

In countries where militia or volunteer corps constitute the army, or form part of it, they are included under the denomination "army."

The first condition may be met by Hamas... the remaining three clearly not. Will a possible armistice agreement be honored by 'both' parties and how long? Who is responsible for Palestine's obligations? Hamas? Mahmoud Abbas' Palestinian Authority? I suspect no one will be responsible on the Palestinian's side as with previous agreements and treaties.

Source: (Hague) Agreement concerning the laws and customs of land war, Oct 8th 1907.
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Message 2135592 - Posted: 7 May 2024, 15:48:22 UTC - in response to Message 2135586.  

Was the kibitz in Palestine or Israel? Which line in the sand is the right line in the sand? Can a line in the sand move? Who can draw lines in the sand? Will anyone respect a line in the sand? Does the line in the sand change the status of the people who suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of it? Are they given full total rights like all others on that side of the line? Are they discriminated against Apartheid style? Does their religion ascribe they are "chosen" and always right and all others are "not chosen" and always wrong? It tit for tat adult?
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Message 2135598 - Posted: 7 May 2024, 21:07:49 UTC

German ammo... now we're evil too? Germany delivered 3,000 HEAT RPGs and half a million cartridges for guns and small arms. But why are RPGs and machine guns required to pursue and arrest some thousand murderers and hostage-takers in a large (peaceful) city? It's infamous to insinuate the German-supplied ammunition helped to kill innocent civilians. Germany also supplied RPGs, artillery and tank shells to Ukraine.... to kill innocents?
Don't deny that Germany isn't the 2nd largest contributor of arms to Adolf Benji after the U.S. and those supplying him are very much complaisant in this genocide.

The difference between the Ukraine and Israel is that the Ukraine is defending itself against an aggressor while the Israeli government is the aggressor and Oct.7 was just another result of Adolf Benji's continual policies of government supported land theft from Palestinians and the murder of those Palestinians in the process of that continual land theft, both of which have greatly accelerated since then.

Here our government has for quite some time has suspended or cancelled deals with the IDF, of which Adolf Benji was certainly not happy about, but we will not in any way be seen to support this outright genocide.

And no matter how hard you try to paint a different picture, outright genocide is all it is.

Everyone deserves to live in peace and as equals under the rule of law and without these criminal governments that want it otherwise and it's also obvious that these sort of governments and their policies just breed terrorists against them.

Adolf Benji is no different to Mob Boss PooTin, Pooh Bear Xi, Little Rocketman Kim, Delusional Donny and others of their ilk who think that they are above the law, plus Adolf Benji knows that it's the end of the road for him once this slaughter of his ends.

So why keep on trying to defend the indefensible? Palestinians should have all the same rights that we enjoy, but the Israeli government won't allow that under any circumstances.

Al Jazeera is a partisan, one-sided news agency.
As for Al Jazeera, I rather their reporting over the top of the heavily censored/controlled 1 sided B.S. propaganda coming out of the Israeli media or of those external sites that want to keep on reporting from Israel or they'll be in the same position as Al Jazeera.
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Message 2135600 - Posted: 7 May 2024, 22:35:10 UTC - in response to Message 2135598.  

As for Al Jazeera,
What I find telling is Israel didn't let them pack up their equipment and ship it out, they stole it. Just is their wont to steal land.
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Message 2135614 - Posted: 8 May 2024, 9:56:07 UTC

It should've happened months ago and should be more permanent.

US pauses shipment of weapons to Israel to head off Rafah invasion — official.

The US has paused a shipment of weapons to Israel in opposition to apparent moves by Israel to invade the southern Gaza city of Rafah.

US President Joe Biden has been trying to head off a full-scale assault by the Israelis against Rafah, where hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have sought refuge from combat elsewhere in Gaza.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that as Israeli leaders seemed to approach a decision on a Rafah incursion, "we began to carefully review proposed transfers of particular weapons to Israel that might be used in Rafah" beginning in April.

"As a result of that review, we have paused one shipment of weapons last week. It consists of 1,800 2,000-pound bombs and 1,700 500-pound bombs," the official said.

"We are especially focused on the end-use of the 2,000-pound bombs and the impact they could have in dense urban settings as we have seen in other parts of Gaza.

"We have not made a final determination on how to proceed with this shipment."

Four sources said the shipment, which have been delayed for at least two weeks, involved Boeing-made Joint Direct Attack Munitions, which convert dumb bombs into precision-guided ones, as well as Small Diameter Bombs.

The delay comes at a time when Washington is publicly pressuring Israel to postpone its planned offensive in Rafah until after it has taken steps to avert civilian casualties.

The White House and Pentagon declined to comment........
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Message 2135625 - Posted: 8 May 2024, 11:48:36 UTC

Holding back the blockbusters is what makes the good cop.
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Message boards : Politics : When will the West stop pandering the Israeli government?


 
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