Are there any good game-changing bloodless solutions?

Pulling Israel back to these original boundaries and letting Palestinians build on their own land would be a big start.

Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire, one of the Central powers defeated in WW1. Entente powers blamed the war to the Central powers. Accordingly, the territorial borders of the German Empire, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire were redrawn in peace treaties. Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire disintegrated. Levant territory of the Ottoman Empire was mandated to Entente powers as protectorates. In 1922 the League of Nations gave the UK the mandate over Palestine and the Transjordan territory (statute of occupation). (France get the mandate over Syria (& todays Lebanon), for example). The British mandate called for the creation of a state for the Jewish people west of the Jordan River. The British made no progress. At the end of WW2 they handed their responsibility over to the newly founded United Nations (UN). The UN's Gen. Assembly decided on Nov 9, 1947, the partition plan for Palestine into a Jewish and a Palestinian state (Wiggo posted the map), and areas under international supervision (Jerusalem & Bethlehem).

What this splendid UN plan did not include: a realistic, actionable path to enforcement. The partition plan was detrimental to Jews and Palestinians. The Jews (then the 'Jewish Agency' accepted this plan, the Palestinians and all neighboring Arab countries firmly rejected it (a majority decision of the UN General Assembly). The British Mandate ended on May 14, 1948 at midnight (May 15, 00:00). Israel declared independence in the afternoon that day. Just hours later, the armies of Transjordan, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria attacked the newly founded state ("Palestine War" resp. "Israel's War of Independence").

Was this UN partition plan sensible? Thought through? Did the mandated power, the UK, fulfill its responsibility as the occupying power? Rather not...

Each war creates new political realities. Since 1948 neighboring Arab countries initiated three wars against Israel. The partition plan of 1947, that is the division of the territories planned then, became invalid due to the Arab aggression of 1948. It's no longer worth referring to this plan. It's history.

As soon as the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be peace in the Middle East. If Israel did this, it would cease to exist.

It seems to be the same with Russia and Ukraine.

Seems we are still fighting WW I.

IF we are not going to accept borders based on lands they have conquered then why choose a specific modern date to set the borders why not go back to the very beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

Here we have the deadly results of Iran and Russia throwing over FIVE THOUSAND 'fire crackers' into a lifetime-long politically and religiously, stirred up and festering, powder keg:


(Warning: Not for the caring or the faint of heart.)

Warthog Defense - SHOCKING: ISRAEL IS OVERRUN BY HAMAS, PALESTINIAN FIGHTERS CAPTURED ISRAELI MILITARY BASE

Warthog Defense - BAD NEWS FOR ISRAEL: HEZBOLLAH IS PREPARING TO ENTER THE WAR


That widespread attack, on a deeply religious holiday, has clearly been long premeditated and funded and supplied by others far outside those making the attack on the ground. All mindlessly against anyone and anything Israeli.

What boarders from what history, and from who's history, might you wish to redraw against such 'politics'?

Note that the perpetrators and their extremists preach a 'religious' 'war' to eradicate everything and everyone Israeli or Jewish.

Also note that no appeasement ever works.

(Also note that there will be some Palestinians who are not involved. And that some (many?) of those who are involved will likely not be Palestinians either...)


How do we sensibly get out of this mess?

All in our deadly political world.
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

How do we sensibly get out of this mess?

All who subscribe to religion placed in a rubber room?

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/8/there-is-nothing-surprising-about-hamass-operation wrote:

There is nothing surprising about Hamas’s operation
But nothing about this operation is surprising or unprovoked. Neither is it just the result of gaps in Israeli security measures. It is a response that is to be expected from the Palestinian people, who have faced Israeli settler colonial rule and occupation for decades.
Gaza has also been under debilitating siege for 16 years, which has taken a heavy toll on its people but has failed to destroy their will to resist. The blockade was imposed after Hamas won the Palestinian Legislative Council elections in 2006, but its Palestinian rival, Fatah, along with Israel and its backers conspired to prevent it from taking power.
For more than 16 years, the residents of Gaza have had no freedom of movement. They can leave through the Israeli-controlled checkpoints if they have an Israeli work permit or in rare cases if they have been given special permissions by Israel to receive medical treatment in the occupied West Bank for life-threatening conditions. To leave for any other part of the world, they must have a valid visa, which is difficult to obtain by stateless people, and then navigate the Egyptian authorities’ arbitrary decisions to close the Rafah border crossing and deny entry to Palestinians.
The blockade has brought the economy of Gaza nearly to a standstill. Today close to half the population is unemployed. Among the young, the unemployment rate is more than 60 percent. The food supply is also limited by the siege. From 2007 to 2010, Israeli authorities kept a calorie count of Palestinians’ nutritional needs to narrowly avoid malnutrition while restricting access to food for the people in Gaza.
Today, according to the World Food Programme, a significant portion of the population is food insecure. In 2022, 1.84 million people across Palestine – one-third of the population – did not have enough food to eat. Among these people, 1.1 million were considered “severely food insecure”, 90 percent of whom lived in Gaza.
The strip also suffers from an energy crisis. The Israeli ban on the entry of fuel into Gaza means that electricity production is severely limited. In 2023, Gaza has had only 13 hours of electricity a day. In 2017 and 2018, this was down to seven hours a day.
This has in turned caused severe problems with water provision and sanitation. The constant blackouts have prevented water treatment plants from functioning properly. As a result, untreated sewage simply flows into the Mediterranean Sea.
Gaza’s aquifers, the main source of its water, are also nearly depleted and contaminated by sea- and wastewater. A significant portion of all reported diseases in Gaza is caused by poor access to safe water.
The blockade has also taken a toll on the strip’s medical facilities. Hospitals lack basic supplies, equipment and infrastructure and are unable to handle severe cases or provide proper care for the chronically ill.
The psychological impact of all of this cannot be understated, especially among the young, who feel a heightened sense of hopelessness and mental distress. As a Palestinian youth in Gaza told me during an interview in 2013: “Every day here is a struggle to stop yourself from losing your mind. You will notice that the youth in Gaza often go to university and then on the side they do internships, volunteer or set up organizations. All this is done to remain occupied mentally and delay the inevitable point when you lose it.”

What do you expect if you force human beings to live under these conditions? Is this the moral equivalent of apartheid? If you force them to live like this, why are you surprised that they want to kill you?

How did the USA treat Japan at the close of WWII. Did it enslave the population? Did it cut off electricity? Did it destroy hospitals? Did it endanger potable water? Did it count calories of the Japanese?

Ask yourself what the relationship between Japan and the USA is now, and what the relationship between Palestine and Israel is. Can you see any reasons for it?

I know thinking is hard. It is far easier to believe the book thumper who points and tells you bad or good, one word easy to swallow pills. Just like it is easy to believe in anti-vax, no moon landing and flat earth. Simplistic lies vs complex processes.
<ed> fixed bbcode error twice

Yes you can only push so many people so far into an ever shrinking corner before they explode and Benji and his far right terrorist mob have only got themselves to blame for what is happening.

Netanyahu failed Israel.

In the past 24 hours, two reports out of Israel have pointed to a striking conclusion: that the failure to prevent Hamas’s murderous assault on southern Israel rests in significant part with the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

First, the Washington Post’s Noga Tarnopolsky and Shira Rubin wrote a lengthy dispatch on the many policy failures that allowed Hamas to break through. They find that, in addition to myriad unforgivable intelligence and military mistakes — especially shocking given Israel’s reputation in both fields — there were serious political problems. Distracted by both the fight to seize control over Israel’s judiciary and their effort to deepen Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Netanyahu and his cabinet allowed military readiness to degrade and left outposts on the Gaza border in the south unmanned.........

Netanyahu failed Israel.

... and the Hamas terror thugs and their allies played right into his hands by being worse than he even could be: massacring young people at a musical peace festival, going house-to-house and eliminating only the Jewish residents like the SS themselves, kidnapping teenage girls to be used as sex slaves/taking hostages then beheading them while recording it and posting on the internet à la ISIL, and much more.

So now he is the defender, has the unwavering support of all Western allies, is likely going to be president for life and has carte blanche to do whatever he wants to the West Bank and Gaza. If the invaders had stuck to military/government targets and fought a legitimate war we may have had a nice investigation into the all-too-convenient intelligence and other failures that allowed this to happen; doubt that will get much traction now. The Palestinian people will again pay the price for allowing mindlessly violent extremists to exist in their midst and represent them.

By the way, the Hamas leadership met with Putin in March.. another coincidence? I would be very surprised if he doesn't have a hand in this. Like Netanyahu, it would certainly serve his needs: drawing U.S. involvement into any other conflict would (he hopes) draw it away from support for Ukraine.

---

Seems we are still fighting WW I.

Absolutely. All the problems in the Middle East arose at the end of WW I, partly from the ignorance of victorious powers FR and UK and partly from calculation. The Ottoman Empire had been in decline (society, science, manufacturing, politics) for a century, no longer a threat to Eastern and Southeastern Europe. But it still was a disruptive factor for the British Empire and France in securing sea and land routes to their colonies in India and Southeast Asia. At that time, the Ottoman Empire was allied with Central Powers, the German and Austria-Hungarian Empire. In the peace treaties ending WW1 in the Middle East, the Levant territories of the Ottoman Empire were divided into many parts. Its later reunification was made impossible. How? Dead-straight lines were drawn on the map over thousands of kilometers through the settlement areas of various peoples (Sykes–Picot Agreement between FR and UK which divided territories of today's Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Turkey, ...). People living there suddenly found themselves in various protectorates, occupied by UK and FR (small parts of Turkey also by IT & RU). Some large peoples, such as the Kurds, became a minority in each of the new protectorates. Still today they strive (sometimes fight) for an autonomous region or an own state. These multi-ethnic states (Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, ...) founded after WW I had internal conflicts regarding their citizens' ethnicity (language, culture) and religion (Christians, Sunni and Shia Muslims, Jews, other minorities) from day one. So they were busy for an indefinite period of time.

Mission accomplished: The Ottoman Empire, or rather its imperial nucleus, today's Turkey, is no longer a strategic player in geopolitics between Europe, Asia and Africa.

Yes you can only push so many people so far into an ever shrinking corner before they explode and Benji and his far right terrorist mob have only got themselves to blame for what is happening.

Put a dog in a cage, beat it with a stick, don't give it food and water and you get Hamas. So now beat the dog even more and expect a different result?

And on that basis I have some sympathy with Hamas, towards whom Israel has behaved abominably as a neighbour and occupier. Provocation upon provocation, until the bubble finally bursts. Doesn't excuse the eventual retaliation, of course, but what else does an oppressed minority do if the ruling clique refuses to accept them as rights-holders?

In the UK's case, ask the IRA in Northern Ireland. Ask the Catholics in the 17th and 18th centuries. And in more recent times, ask the unions representing the health workers, the transport workers, the school workers, ...

We'll only be freed from this horrible, vicious, wasteful cycle of violence when people sit down together to talk through their differences. This planet is too small for the "just move further away" solution.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/8/there-is-nothing-surprising-about-hamass-operation wrote:

There is nothing surprising about Hamas’s operation

Sorry, reading such nonsense from Al Jazeera makes me really angry. This is the one-sided Arab view that has been repeated for decades. Many elites, e.g. in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, perceive that they achieve nothing sticking to this view. This view was created to ensure the Palestinian-Israeli conflict remains forever. Israel's image as evil enemy must be maintained. There can't be a democratic constitutional state in the Middle East peacefully coexisting with Palestinians. In the end Palestinians may live more prosperous (like Arab Israeli citizens in northern Israel) than in other Arab states. Autocratic elites fear such an 'example' endangering their corrupt rule.

The murdered Israelis were not occupiers, nor settlers, or colonial masters. They lived on their own soil, in their own state, an area that the UN designated for a Jewish state in 1947. The CORE PROBLEM here is that the Palestinians and their supporters abroad aim to DESTROY the state of ISRAEL against the expressed will of the majority of UN states. All Jews are to be 'pushed into the sea' (as we saw... means: massacre). As long as this FACT remains, there is no need to discuss the self-imposed Palestinian suffering.

Why are residents of Gaza restricted in their freedom? Why doesn't Egypt let them enter? Because these Islamist fundamentalists would also destabilize Egypt, helping the Muslim Brotherhood come to power. Why doesn't Jordan let them enter? Palestinians... Jordanians... are these somehow two different peoples, culturally or linguistically? No! Only the islamist fundamentalism separates them. The Jordanian king wants peace in his country and economic relations with Israel. That's why he doesn't give Palestinians the Jordanian citizenship, no passports or entry visas. Does the blockade of Gaza aim to torment its residents? Does Egypt want to torment its Arab brothers and sisters? Does Israel want that? It is solely for self-protection. The Palestinians in Gaza lack this self-awareness.

So people in Gaza are starving, have no electricity, no water. Imports from Israel and Egypt are restricted. Why? Because massive amounts of weapons are being smuggled, explosives, rocket parts. Vast quantities of imported cement are used to build command bunkers and vast military tunnels. All Gaza leader's initiative and actions are focused exclusively on rearmament and preparation for the next aggression. Who takes care of the citizens of Gaza, the construction of schools, nutrition, medical care, medicines, jobs? This is what the donors from Europe, the West, some Arab states, the UN and the EU do. Palestinians are starving, have insufficient medical supplies? Smuggling parts for thousands of rockets, assault rifles and grenades is no problem. Modern pickup trucks and motorbikes drive there. There is always fuel for that. They have smartphones and modern clothing. Israel supplied electricity and potable water on behalf of Mahmud Abbas' Palestinian self-government, which pays for supplies). Such supply contracts are usually reliably fulfilled if the supplied party refrains from shooting rockets at the supplier. They are starving, sitting in the dark, without water? Then Gaza's leadership may should change priorities.

In 1948 there were 80,000 Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip. At that time they practised agriculture; manufacturing & trade in urban areas, like everywhere else. The Palestina war (1947-49) resulted in 26% of 750,000...800,000 refugees moving to Gaza. That's further 200,000. Today 2 million people live there. Gaza's population doubles every 15 to 20 years, one of the highest birth rates worldwide. Half are under 18 years old. Gaza cannot provide a livelihood for such population explosion. Former agricultural land was covered with houses. They are dependent on food imports and donations to pay for them. Gaza's leaders don't care about good relations with neighboring countries, for trade, for jobs. Such leaders' action is irresponsible and it is unsustainable. Gaza today lives solely from the fact that countries' leaders abroad who believe they are morally high and act ethically repeatedly cover up this contradiction with billions of dollars instead of truly looking at the problem, discussing and resolving it. This encounter with reality would be painful for the West's illusions. Gaza, resp. Palestinians would have to change their relationship with Israel, Egypt and Jordan. Nobody wants to force them to do this, not the West, not the moderate Arab states.

Gaza is suffering as long as aggressive islamic powers abroad are fueling the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with weapons and fundamentalist brainwashing. The value-driven, morally high West finances the necessary basis of life within this hotbed of terror. Without this, births would decline and the supply of human Kamikaze warriors for Hamas and Islamic Jihad could stop. Some like Kuwait, Qatar, Iran, and others would try to prevent this at all costs, since Gaza and West Bank are their perfect weapon against Israel.

Hamas (or should I say Iran) now may have destroyed this eternal cycle in Gaza. Israel will no longer passively endure, neither such massacres nor the donors from Europe resp. the West and arms suppliers from the Middle East.

[edited for typos... BBCode errors]

Yes you can only push so many people so far into an ever shrinking corner before they explode and Benji and his far right terrorist mob have only got themselves to blame for what is happening.

Netanyahu failed Israel.

Don't get me wrong, I am not an anti-Palestinian hawk. Israel's security was best ensured when intelligent, prudent heads of government led the country, who prevented military threats, countered aggression in a measured manner, but carefully weighed pros and cons before military operations and considered what would be the aftermath... who did not start military operations out of principle or out of revenge.

Ariel Sharon and Benji do not belong to this category. Either Benji was simply stupid and irresponsible or he consciously exposed the South under pressure from his far-right partners, eventually speculating on a (less massive) Hamas attack to distract from his domestic problems?

Fundamentalist settler interests should never determine Israel's defense or policy. If settlements in the West Bank are the final obstacle to peace or the two-state solution, Israel will have to abandon them just as it abandoned (small) settlements in Gaza. In the past, these had a military strategic purpose... no longer.

After almost 3 decades terrorist Benji has moved further away from the 2 state solution as he wants it all with no place left for Palestinians anywhere.

Israel’s war with Hamas leaves an entire region in turmoil with the potential for tensions to boil out of control.

We'll only be freed from this horrible, vicious, wasteful cycle of violence when people sit down together to talk through their differences. This planet is too small for the "just move further away" solution.

+1

But the "people" who have to sit down to solve this almost a 100 years old conflict aren't only Israels' and Palestinians' leaders. They can't achieve anything without most of Middle East's countries leaders, especially Iran, as well as the US, UK, FR, maybe EU & RU, being willing to honestly discuss their interests regarding Israel and Palestina. They all bear responsibility for this eternal cycle of violence. Some have positive intentions, many are indifferent, others still have malicious goals. It is unlikely that such a honest discussion between them will be possible in this century. Before, all fundamentalist, ideologic stubborns, and religious fanatics have to be jailed into Gary's "rubber room". The British-Irish conflict was resolved when they overcame this hurdle.

... The British-Irish conflict was resolved when they overcame this hurdle.

Yes, we 'bought off' the terrorists with a handsome politician's salary for life and a big house for them in which to play the games of kings.

Disgusting politics, and painful for those seeking fair Justice for decades of atrocities, but so far the civilized part of the ploy seems to have worked to give a better future.

However, I doubt that very British way of things can be applied to overcome the "100 years of hatred" that is been taught to the children of Gaza...


Is there any "good" way out in the holiest of lands?

All under the eyes of god...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

One could say Passover celebrates having the shoe on the other foot. Then there is the lesson of Karma and the ten plagues.

Only idiots would not have learned that lesson. (but they repeat it even this second)

As to the most recent violence, every action has an equal an opposite reaction although it may be delayed.

Tell me it didn't start over 3000 years ago and continues today in an increasing feedback loop.

God must be driven from the planet for every death of this fighting has been in one of his names, Allah, Yahweh, Jesus and more, all the very same god. If he likes killing so much drive him from the planet!

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/8/there-is-nothing-surprising-about-hamass-operation wrote:

There is nothing surprising about Hamas’s operation

Sorry, reading such nonsense from Al Jazeera makes me really angry. This is the one-sided Arab view that has been repeated for decades.

As to it being repeated for a long time, is that because it is true? Is the only way you can sleep at night to believe it to be false? Do you have any evidence it is false?

If true you must support starvation, disease, destruction of housing, contaminated food and water for a people.

The question isn't if it was justified, the question is should it have been expected.

BTW The Qatari government really doesn't have a dog in this. They don't have a profit motive like the EU, USA and UN do is seeing conflict.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/LMT/
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BA?p=BA
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/NOC/
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GD/
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/BA.L/
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/rtx
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/imco?countrycode=il

... The British-Irish conflict was resolved when they overcame this hurdle.

Yes, we 'bought off' the terrorists with a handsome politician's salary for life and a big house for them in which to play the games of kings.

Disgusting politics, and painful for those seeking fair Justice for decades of atrocities, but so far the civilized part of the ploy seems to have worked to give a better future.

However, I doubt that very British way of things can be applied to overcome the "100 years of hatred" that is been taught to the children of Gaza...


Is there any "good" way out in the holiest of lands?

All under the eyes of god...
Martin

1000's of years now. Yet the 2 state solution that's been bandied about for many decades now and the Palestinians want it, yet the Israeli government continues to block it and send in their murdering terrorist so called "settlers" to kill and steal more land and when they get done in Benji and his terrorist government send in the terrorist troops where they shouldn't be in the 1st place and then as usual the Palestinians react. Wouldn't you if your homes and land are continually being stolen?

The west has allowed the far right terrorist Zionist influenced government to get away with plain outright genocide for decades and it's time for it to stop and stop now.

It'll only get worse if Benji and his Zionist mob arn't pulled into line and into line very quickly. Also remember that Benji is just like Trump and doing his best to escape many corruption and fraud charges by trying his hardest to dilute the power of the courts (whereas Donny installed pet judges instead).

Crikey, and to think that they suggested the far north west of our country being a new Israel because nobody lived there (except the indigenous people of cause).

Plus this world would be such a nicer placer place without any delusionally silly religious B.S.spewing about their stupid hate and narrow focus on what life should be for everyone.

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/8/there-is-nothing-surprising-about-hamass-operation wrote:

There is nothing surprising about Hamas’s operation

Sorry, reading such nonsense from Al Jazeera makes me really angry. This is the one-sided Arab view that has been repeated for decades.

As to it being repeated for a long time, is that because it is true? Is the only way you can sleep at night to believe it to be false? Do you have any evidence it is false?

If true you must support starvation, disease, destruction of housing, contaminated food and water for a people.

The question isn't if it was justified, the question is should it have been expected.

BTW The Qatari government really doesn't have a dog in this. They don't have a profit motive like the EU, USA and UN do is seeing conflict.

No, nobody on earth expects such behaviour from human beeings, neither in peace nor in war. It is not humane to brutally massacre an entire flock of sheep and leave them to die. Wolves do this. They are shot then because they've gotten used to it.

The author of Al Jazeera is an associate professor at a Danish public university. He is a postdoc in Roskilde. He is not a native Dane. Never Danes would approve such expressions of opinion. He justifies the attack with a general right of struggling for independence from colonial rule:

"UN General Assembly Resolution 37/43 also reaffirms that people struggling for independence and liberation from colonial rule have the right to do so using “all available means, including armed struggle”. In other words, Operation Al-Aqsa Flood is part of the armed Palestinian struggle provoked by the Israeli occupation and colonialism."

Following this argument, an IRA attack in the 1980s on a kindergarten in Birmingham, where they then brutally slaughter the children, would be a legitimate armed struggle of the Irish people provoked by British occupation and colonialism in Ireland. No, Never!

Any imagined right to resist never justifies terror. Even acts of war must have a tactical goal and avoid collateral damage if possible. This attack had no tactical aim. Hamas wanted to kill civilians, as many and as cruelly as possible. NOTHING justifies such horror. What he writes is an endorsement of war crimes, of the most heinous murders of women, children and babies, most recently seen in the Holocaust. This is punishable. The author has left the civilized discourse of Democrats. He should be released immediately, his residence status should be checked and, if possible, terminated immediately. There is no other way.

Every evening now I watch happily grinning, jubilant Arabs in Germany giving interviews on the TV evening news in a good mood, saying how happy they are that Hamas has "finally done something" and how they celebrated it. They demonstrate on the streets of Neukölln, the Arab district of Berlin, with flags and all that propaganda crap and slogans. When the Russian-Germans cheered the aggression against Ukraine, the government took tough action with fines and bans. Now they look away. We have to understand their mentality, their culture. No, never!

There's no more to be said. Israel cannot solve this conflict on its own; this also requires reason in Gaza and Hebron, in Iran, Syria and Lebanon. Still, there isn't.

Btw.: Qatari government blamed Israel for this horror. That's all I need to know.