BTW: As with Japan, in the 1980's: Much of this money is invested back, within the US by Chinese.

Wrong you owe this money because of the GFC they bailled you out and then relized it could leave them open to a run on there currency like what happened in the Asian F.C and have refused to loan you any more money . Hell even we had to give you 900 mill witch we want back now you free loaders

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Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Clyde when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

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Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Clyde when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

AFAIK only in games.

You really should stop your fear mongering of Russia

Only five minutes ago a JAS Gripen jet fighter passed over our heads two times.
Yes. Over MY head and others.
Why? I don't know but most likely to "escort" some Russian bombers and fighter jets out of OUR territory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKlQyPOiRuE

You really should stop your fear mongering of Russia

Very Neville Chamberlainest.

Peace in our time?

Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Clyde when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

Never.

Why do you ask?

Because you stated "that in our history we had a free market" and it is a fact that a market with monopolies and or oligopolies is not free. So I ask what were you trying to say?

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Clyde sorry it wasn't you it was Dena. So I will ask him.

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Myths "Capitalism and free markets is best"

Reality "Country's whom follow this theory now owe so much they are technically insolvent"

This one is also incorrect. The progressive movement has been pushing us toward socialism for over a hundred years. Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Dena when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

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Myths "Capitalism and free markets is best"

Reality "Country's whom follow this theory now owe so much they are technically insolvent"

This one is also incorrect. The progressive movement has been pushing us toward socialism for over a hundred years. Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Dena when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

Never was. Tell me what good a monopoly on Vacuum tubes would be today. A monopoly only last as long as you maintaining the ability to evolve the technology to stay ahead of the market place. Some examples are Studebaker who make really great horse drawn wagons, Xerox who had the copy machine market to themselves, IBM who was the name in office equipment and computers, AT&T in telephone service, Standard Oil who even after the breakup was a major power, Motorola a leader in semiconductor production and many other. Unless the monopoly is enforced by the government, anybody with a better idea is free to make that monopoly history.

Now we have the government interfering with the free market by picking winners and losers, government contracts and loans eliminate competitors and government granted monopolies often block people with a better idea. This is the socialist part of our government that for the most part didn't exist until the progressive movement gained control.

Also note that all monopolies are not bad. Standard oil became a major power by underselling everybody and even after the market was locked up, the prices for their products remained low and affordable. It isn't in the best interest of a monopoly to raise prices to the point that others can compete.

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Now we have the government interfering with the free market by picking winners and losers, government contracts and loans eliminate competitors and government granted monopolies often block people with a better idea. This is the socialist part of our government that for the most part didn't exist until the progressive movement gained control.

Socialism is not about picking economic winners and losers. The fact that the US government does that has nothing to do with socialism. At its worst, its just good old clientelism, giving preferred 'clients' superior access, and hence improving their position in the market.

Also note that all monopolies are not bad. Standard oil became a major power by underselling everybody and even after the market was locked up, the prices for their products remained low and affordable. It isn't in the best interest of a monopoly to raise prices to the point that others can compete.

Yeah no. A monopoly can drive up prices significantly above normal market value without opening up the market for competition. Actually, a monopoly can drive up prices almost infinitely without ever getting bothered by competitors.

And why? Well most markets dominated by monopolies have a barrier to entry that is big enough to prohibit anyone else from entering it. The infrastructure required to start up even as a small competitor is so expensive that almost no one can afford it. Look at the American cable market, part of the reason a lot of those cable companies have such an easy time holding on to their position is because the barrier to entry is insanely expensive. Same goes for the oil industry. You can't just start your oil company, you need an oil field first and then you need to build a big installation capable of drilling for it, etc.

And if the barrier to entry is not expensive enough and some small start up makes it through by being smart, there is a good chance the monopoly is rich enough to just buy out the competition.

There are only two good monopolies. The first is a natural monopoly, a market where competition makes no sense. The second good monopoly is the monopoly of violence. All other monopolies tend to be horrible.

Now we have the government interfering with the free market by picking winners and losers, government contracts and loans eliminate competitors and government granted monopolies often block people with a better idea. This is the socialist part of our government that for the most part didn't exist until the progressive movement gained control.

Socialism is not about picking economic winners and losers. The fact that the US government does that has nothing to do with socialism. At its worst, its just good old clientelism, giving preferred 'clients' superior access, and hence improving their position in the market.

Also note that all monopolies are not bad. Standard oil became a major power by underselling everybody and even after the market was locked up, the prices for their products remained low and affordable. It isn't in the best interest of a monopoly to raise prices to the point that others can compete.

Yeah no. A monopoly can drive up prices significantly above normal market value without opening up the market for competition. Actually, a monopoly can drive up prices almost infinitely without ever getting bothered by competitors.

And why? Well most markets dominated by monopolies have a barrier to entry that is big enough to prohibit anyone else from entering it. The infrastructure required to start up even as a small competitor is so expensive that almost no one can afford it. Look at the American cable market, part of the reason a lot of those cable companies have such an easy time holding on to their position is because the barrier to entry is insanely expensive. Same goes for the oil industry. You can't just start your oil company, you need an oil field first and then you need to build a big installation capable of drilling for it, etc.

And if the barrier to entry is not expensive enough and some small start up makes it through by being smart, there is a good chance the monopoly is rich enough to just buy out the competition.

There are only two good monopolies. The first is a natural monopoly, a market where competition makes no sense. The second good monopoly is the monopoly of violence. All other monopolies tend to be horrible.

That makes no sense. You have over the air, movie rental, Internet Dish and Direct TV service. Satellite TV has been competing with cable almost from the time the first cable was constructed. Remember the 6 foot receiving antennas? They picked up the raw feed until it was scrambled but if your were willing to pay for it you could get a descrambler. I don't know how it is in your country but if somebody sees a market opportunity we sell stock or get a venture capitalist to fund entry into the business. Bumping the price only works on the short term unless the government grants a monopoly exclusive rights to a product.

As for entry into the oil business, look up the term wildcatter. Many oil fortunes have been made that way.

You also know very little about our government as most of our citizens. We may not have your brand of socialism but we have it none the less. Marxist governments take many forms and we learned from the worst. Ours is based on 1890 socialist Germany but we eliminated the requirement for a revolutions. As I said before, our form of socialism is called Progressivism.

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Myths "Capitalism and free markets is best"

Reality "Country's whom follow this theory now owe so much they are technically insolvent"

This one is also incorrect. The progressive movement has been pushing us toward socialism for over a hundred years. Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Dena when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

Never was. Tell me what good a monopoly on Vacuum tubes would be today. A monopoly only last as long as you maintaining the ability to evolve the technology to stay ahead of the market place. Some examples are Studebaker who make really great horse drawn wagons, Xerox who had the copy machine market to themselves, IBM who was the name in office equipment and computers, AT&T in telephone service, Standard Oil who even after the breakup was a major power, Motorola a leader in semiconductor production and many other. Unless the monopoly is enforced by the government, anybody with a better idea is free to make that monopoly history.

Now we have the government interfering with the free market by picking winners and losers, government contracts and loans eliminate competitors and government granted monopolies often block people with a better idea. This is the socialist part of our government that for the most part didn't exist until the progressive movement gained control.

Also note that all monopolies are not bad. Standard oil became a major power by underselling everybody and even after the market was locked up, the prices for their products remained low and affordable. It isn't in the best interest of a monopoly to raise prices to the point that others can compete.

Dena I fail to follow your logic you state that by studying something that never was, the free market, we will understand it.

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Myths "Capitalism and free markets is best"

Reality "Country's whom follow this theory now owe so much they are technically insolvent"

This one is also incorrect. The progressive movement has been pushing us toward socialism for over a hundred years. Only by studying history do we know what capitalism and free market was.

Dena when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

Never was. Tell me what good a monopoly on Vacuum tubes would be today. A monopoly only last as long as you maintaining the ability to evolve the technology to stay ahead of the market place. Some examples are Studebaker who make really great horse drawn wagons, Xerox who had the copy machine market to themselves, IBM who was the name in office equipment and computers, AT&T in telephone service, Standard Oil who even after the breakup was a major power, Motorola a leader in semiconductor production and many other. Unless the monopoly is enforced by the government, anybody with a better idea is free to make that monopoly history.

Now we have the government interfering with the free market by picking winners and losers, government contracts and loans eliminate competitors and government granted monopolies often block people with a better idea. This is the socialist part of our government that for the most part didn't exist until the progressive movement gained control.

Also note that all monopolies are not bad. Standard oil became a major power by underselling everybody and even after the market was locked up, the prices for their products remained low and affordable. It isn't in the best interest of a monopoly to raise prices to the point that others can compete.

Dena I fail to follow your logic you state that by studying something that never was, the free market, we will understand it.

Free market mean that anyone who can gather the resource to compete, can compete. it is not a grantee that everybody will be able to compete in the market place.

It may be an oxymoron but the bases of the founding of our government is that freedom isn't free. There is a price to pay for that freedom. In our founding we paid it in blood. Our freedom of speech means we must tolerate speech from others that we may strongly disagree with. Our freedom to own firearms require we handle them safely and we be willing to use them to defend our country against our government. To be free we must not depend on the government but must instead rely only on ourself. As in our discussion I have the right to compete in the market place but I must do it with my own resources or I must do it with the aid of other WHO AGREE WITH ME. It's not the job of the government to make me successful, but is is the job of the government to stay out of my way.

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Progressive Agenda Good.

" We've got a lot of people coming out supporting a Progressive Agenda, and
what a Progressive Agenda says is that government works for all of the people,
and not just the people on top."...Bernie Sanders . . .Sen Vermont.


Sounds good to me.

You don't understand Political speak. All animals are equal but some are more equal that others.

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Free market mean that anyone who can gather the resource to compete, can compete

Dena there is the flaw in your argument, monopolies and oligopolies guarantee that not all can gather the resources to compete.

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Free market mean that anyone who can gather the resource to compete, can compete

Dena there is the flaw in your argument, monopolies and oligopolies guarantee that not all can gather the resources to compete.

That is an incorrect statement. Having all the marbles doesn't protect you from being challenged. If the monopoly isn't serving the market place it will be challenged. If the opportunity to make a profit exist, the resources will be available to challenge the monopoly unless the government blocks it in which case it's not a free market.

I know of no monopoly that has lasted without government intervention and even at that I can't think of one that has lasted 50 years. It's even hard to think of one that lasted 25 years. The railroad are a government monopoly but they have been taken out by air travel and truck freight. Our gas comes from different companies but that's a bit of an illusion, Each city has a tank farm where all the tankers fill up and then the company additive is dumped into the tank so the only different between gas station is the additive package added when the tanker truck was filled. It's an exchange that removes the need to provide duplicate infrastructure but it work in the United States because the profit on gas is less that the government collects on the taxes. On the other hand, if you want to sell gas at your store under your brand name, you are free to contract to buy fuel at the bulk plant. I have already provided a list of companies that once were a monopoly but are no longer. The burden of proof is on you to tell me a company that is and will remain a monopoly. That is the only way you can prove your argument.

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Dena, the free market is a definition, take the time to read The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith! As for the other things you stated they do not address my question which is how is studying something which never existed will tell some truth. Adam Smith got to define what a free market is and it is not your option to change that.
The rest of your verbiage is totally off the topic of the question I asked you.

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Dena, the free market is a definition, take the time to read The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith! As for the other things you stated they do not address my question which is how is studying something which never existed will tell some truth. Adam Smith got to define what a free market is and it is not your option to change that.
The rest of your verbiage is totally off the topic of the question I asked you.

Dena when in our history was the market free of monopolies and oligopolies?

Never was.

In case you forgot, That was my response to your initial question. As for Wealth of nations, I haven't had time to read 1200 pages yet and if I read it before responding, this thread will go dead. Adam Smith was into theory and he wasn't the only one at the time but he is most remembered. He also may not have got everything right. Monopolies are a natural part of a free market but they don't last unless the government sticks it's nose into the free market. In addition monopolies unlike Adam Smith though have not been all bad. He could not have seen that some tasks require a massive company to accomplish Our power grid and telephone service needs to be one unit in order to function properly and provide service and the lowest possible cost. We would have a problem if the telephone exchanges weren't interconnected. Our fuel cost less because companies share resources like pipelines and refineries. The pace of our science runs at a far greater pace than it did 200 years ago so manufactured products are quickly replaced by something better and greater often by another company,

Your options are Adams Smith's idea of a free market or a free market with it's flaws that has withstood the test of time. As an engineer I am more worried about finding something that works for the customer than I am about a proclamation from the Ivory tower.

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Dena you don't address my question, I'm surprised that you don't use set theory when you make your statements.

He also may not have got everything right

Irrelevant he defined what a free market is and that is what my question to you is about.

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government works for all of the people

Best laugh of the day.

Glad I could brighten your day, and you have my sympathy.

No...

People who believe the above, need our sympathy.

Then who should Government work for if not all of the people?
Or are you purposely misunderstanding to fill your daily quota of posts.

What CLYDE means that a government that works for the people would be something unexpected. A government that exist for any amount of time exist to make government's life better and to buy votes so it can remain in the lap of luxury. We believe the only solution to government is to keep it small so it does as little damage as possible.

Find me a government where the government workers (including the leaders) receive the lowest wage paid in the country and I might become a believer.

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