Greek future slips into deeper uncertainty

Janne, that link in your last post keeps stating page not available :-(

Greek future slips into deeper uncertainty

Janne, that link in your last post keeps stating page not available :-(

Weird. Anyway...

The 1953 agreement, in which Greece and about 20 other countries effectively wrote off a large chunk of Germany’s loans and restructured the rest, is a landmark case that shows how effective debt relief can be. It helped spark what became known as the German economic miracle.

So it’s perhaps ironic that Germany is now among the countries resisting Greece’s requests for debt relief.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/greece-handed-germany-an-economic-miracle-after-wwii-and-now-the-roles-have-reversed/story-fnu2pycd-1227426403594

London Agreement on German External Debts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts

That link worked :-)

Germany being two-faced perhaps? Nice haircut they got in 1953. The US & IMF both agree that breathing space is what Greece needs, yet Merkel...

Kaiser Merkel:)

Naw, too far back...

Origin of the EU

A Swede says to a German "You are a Messersmith".
The German replies "It's called a Besserwisser" (Besserwisser is a know-it-all.)

Here is by how much Incomes in Greece decreased over the years.
https://twitter.com/MaxCRoser/status/618129030626312192/photo/1
Time to reboot Greece.

For non-Europeans.

The political meaning of the eurozone and the European Project differs a bit from place to place. To France and Germany, it means the end of war. To Ireland, it means independence from the United Kingdom. To Finland and Latvia and other eastern states, it means independence from the Russian sphere of influence. For Spain and Portugal, it means the end of dictatorship and integration into the realm of democracies. For Greece, it means (unlike Turkey) certification as a real European country

http://www.vox.com/cards/eurozone-crisis/what-is-the-eurozone

One would think that the EU would have woken up to their mistakes after the Cyprus issue where they admitted that they handled it badly, yet continue enforcing their programs knowing full well that they will not work - one size does not fit all!

Will Greece be the David to the EU's Goliath?

Deadline day - Just how many of those has there been in the last 5 years?

Just not this Europe

All just a game to those in ivory towers

All right! Mop up time:) Let's see what happened since 2010, what's going on right now, and even a couple of things we all got wrong! In other words lied to:) Shocking I know (us naïve and honest folk getting tricked). So in no particular order and in bullet point (otherwise I'll never get it done) here's what I'm confident to be true so far! And to steal a line from Chris, it's all tongue and cheek so no-one get too offended 'cause the way I see it we're all (all the posters here) on the same side. Here we go:)

First and foremost:

Welcome to the (now confirmed) United Prison of the Deutschmark, Europe's official new currency :) Yeap, the euro as a currency is history! 17 countries of Europe have gone bat**** crazy and irreversibly tied themselves to the Deutschmark 2.0 But wait! Surely it's not THAT bad right? Well that depends on what country you are living/interested in and its trade balance:



That's from 1980 'till all hell broke loose in 2008. If your country has the "euro" and isn't green, you're screwed. If your country isn't green NOW (or, say, lost Nokia and can't find it), well you're screwed too! Also if you're Holland, then you've pegged your currency to the DM since forever anyway so you don't really care.

In other words countries like Finland are currently living in denial and eating away at their social structure just so Germany can do whatever the hell it wants. Sorry Finland. On the bright side I'm sure this reality will sink in about 5 years or so...

We have ALL been lied to :

-Greeks retire early! False. Unless you use cherry-picked stats.
-Huge public sector. False.
-Greece refuses to reform! Well yeah, until any serious economist looks at some REAL data and they're always gobsmacked by how false this claim is. Still being used by the lovely politicos in EU btw.
-Goldman Sachs cooked the books! I'd love for this to be true but Greece joined the euro 2 whole years before Goldman set foot in the country. What's worse the books didn't even need cooking back in 2001-2002! Shocking, I know.
-Europe bailed Greece out! Well yeah, but no. Greece essentially bailed Europe out. What's even more confusing is that this was the right thing to do! Even more-more confusing is that if an economically mature country like Holland was in Greece's exact position back in 2010 (fantasy, I know, but trying to prove a point here) they would have never ever touched that money!
-I gave Greece money, I want it back! Tough luck with that. The only way you're ever getting that back is if your country leaves the EU (fat chance of that happening). Why? Well you've been lied to, haven't you?:) Again shocking, I know. Anyway that's all EU money now. You didn't give it to Greece, you gave it the EU and you ain't getting it back whether Greece pays off its loans or not! Yeap, we've all got egg on our face now.
-"Our door is open, the ball is in Greece's court" - Translation: We've just given Greece a ton more arbitrary new measures to further destroy the economy but the colony is giving us lip service instead!
-But Greece lied about it's deficit! Hehehehe :) Every country lies about its deficit. What Greece did was break "omerta" and told the TRUTH about its huge deficit. Greece is the ONLY country to have had its accounts forensically analyzed. If Germany was to have its budget looked at tomorrow in the same way, the whole world would be in the toilet by sundown. Not exaggerating baby.
-But Greece is crap! Yeah, but not because of all the bull**** we've been hearing.

So? What then?

Well, during the bubble years (roughly 2003-2008) Greece maxed out its overdraft. Why? Well mostly because:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ease_of_doing_business_index
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report

Then why don't the feckless Greeks get off their lazy bums and fix these?

Well I'm glad you asked:)

There appears to be a German psychopath hell-bent on destroying the economy right now. He's pissed 'cause he can't throw Greece out of his precious union and Greece just flipped him the bird and told him piss off. Oh, and just to rub it in, they're staying!

So any Greek stereotypes you guys got a problem with are just gonna have to wait!:)

The EU staggers onwards toward the next crisis.

Der Fuehrer wins again

Merkel casts doubt over latest deal

What fun it is being a member of a "select club": -

"David Cameron is braced for demands for cash at an emergency summit of EU leaders on the Greek crisis in Brussels tomorrow.

Obscure EU funding mechanisms mean Britain may be unable to opt out of a financial aid package if Greece crashes out of the eurozone."

No longer about economics but the usual "game" of politics.

Would those fakelaki system guys be believed?

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-33491952

Wolfgang Schaeuble - Germany's Finance Minister:

"Our problem is that a situation has developed, where trust and hope created in the last years was destroyed in a very short time," he said.

"We've seen a referendum in which a clear majority voted against conditionality. Now we see the exact opposite of that.

"So most certainly we can't rely on promises. We will want to see a programme that's implemented step by step."

You mean like what they did to Cyprus?

Of course this is a very kind approach. Somebody else surely would already long ago have lost all forbearance with these fakelaki system guys and their apologetics.

Is that why the Yankees are sticking their nose in?

"The fact that US President Barack Obama has become personally involved in the negotiations - with individual eurozone leaders - will have an impact as well."

"The fact that US President Barack Obama has become personally involved in the negotiations - with individual eurozone leaders - will have an impact as well."

This you must ask from Mr Obama. Maybe he is a kind person, too.

So he's now your Secretary of State?? I thought he was POTUS?

The referendum on Sunday was Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras No side's strongest proponents.
But now he puts forward a proposal that is almost identical to the requirements that the Greek people rejected...

The referendum on Sunday was Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras No side's strongest proponents.
But now he puts forward a proposal that is almost identical to the requirements that the Greek people rejected...

...Nickerless Clegg's twin brother?

The referendum on Sunday was Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras No side's strongest proponents.
But now he puts forward a proposal that is almost identical to the requirements that the Greek people rejected...

...Nickerless Clegg's twin brother?

I don't know much about Nick Clegg (Funny name. Klägg means dirty slime here).
How many have heard a politician say Yes or No to a simple question when interviewed?

There must be a death threat against Alexis Tsipras and the Greek parliament, from the EU fascists. Why else would he agree/come up with a program that is worse than the one the Greek people voted NO to just 6 days ago, with 61.31% of the votes.

Is there no end to how far the fascist Bilderberg group in cohorts with the resurrected German fascist state would go, to achieve their goal of a world government, under their heels?

The black boots are marching across Europe again....

But: "El pueblo unido jamás será vencido"

I don't think you understand the meaning of the word fascist. Perhaps you shouldn't use words you don't understand the meaning of before you misuse them and end up looking stupid.

Grow up, and get a life. There isn't one thread in politics that you haven't polluted with your ignorance.

Learn to count, there are plenty of topics I don't partake in here on the politics forum.

You have opinions about bloody everything, and not one time have I seen that you actually know what you're talking about. No experience about the subjects yourself, only academic bull crap. I lost my entire extended family to fascists during WWII, so don't you dare lecturing me about fascism. I can recognize when fascism is on the march from thousands of miles away, and decades before the black boots and brown shirts are seen on the streets.

Which makes it all the sadder that you apparently can't distinguish between actual fascists and everything else. In fact, your ignorance on the topic of fascism is so bad that you talk like one and yet don't even recognize it.

I mean, all the elements of fascist speech are there:
- Emotion over rationalism, you dragging your dead relatives into this
- A blatant disgust for intellectualism
- At the same time promoting 'experience' as the more important basis on which to base arguments.

Surely an expert on fascism such as yourself would instantly grasp the similarities between how fascists talk and what you just said?

Fascism:

often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Fits perfectly for EU. So who's looking stupid now? You really think that your right to vote is more than a charade? You really think that your vote is counted correctly? Oh no, the fascists (dictatorial leaders), have already decided the outcome of the elections.

Fits perfectly for the EU? Are you joking? What part exactly? The part where Fascists exalt the Nation above all else? The EU is not a nation nor even close to being one. Actual Fascists would hate the EU and everything it stands for. And a centralized Autocratic government? Again, really, the EU? The organization where one of the most important decision making organs is the Council consisting of representatives of the individual member states. The organization whose few actual competences pretty much all relate to the internal market? Yeah, I don't know what kind of definition of 'centralized autocratic government' you work with but I have a hard time applying it to the EU.

Dictatorial leader then? Well, really, who leads the EU? Donald Tusk? Juncker? Merkel? The EU has no leader. Only informal ones, and those shift all the time. Kind of a big difference compared to all those actual fascist leaders, like Hitler or Mussolini. Pretty sure those guys made a big point about being the unquestionable, formal leaders of their respective governments.

And forcible suppression of opposition? I'm pretty sure we haven't invaded Greece, arrested their leaders and shot everyone who voted no. Nor are we even close to such a thing. You insult your dead relatives by comparing the circumstances they lived in with the situation of today.

BTW: Children should learn to stop talking when grownups speak. Consider yourself filtered. I've had it with your ignorance, and yapping.

Ah you poor soul. Not only have you demonstrated your total ignorance of both fascism (seriously, everyone can quote a dictionary, and this dictionary definition is woefully incomplete) and the EU (really? Centralized autocratic government, you're hilarious), you've also outed yourself as someone with the rhetoric skills of a toddler. Really? The LAALAALAAALAAA CANT HEAR YOU defense? How old are you?

In case you still read this, take your own advice and stop talking when the grownups speak.

There can be hot air plus big mouths, or there can be actual deeds plus trust. Not in the same time. And who needs the former ones anyway?

You called that right...

Summitt cancelled as "talks" continue

...As I already stated, just a game to those in ivory towers.

Could the Euro survive?

One thing many have not realised is that Tspiras is no fool. He's seen the EU/EZ for what it is. Regardless of which way this goes, Greece wins.

Grexit = Strife ahead but only for a few short years. Their economy eventually recovers & decide to stay with the Drachma & sod the EU (which the "DF's" dread).

Y Euro remains = DF's at the top continue to keep the Euro viable so hand all EZ taxpayers money to the smaller EU countries whenever trouble hits.

Implausible? Then why are the DF's attempting to overthrow Tspiras & his government?