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Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
If you are rooting for the EU's failure, you are rooting for war, poverty and weakness all throughout Europe. No, it wasn't the EU that did that. |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
First, what's with the "you" and "we"? Sorry, its not meant to be taken as referring to you personally. Its short for 'you guys' basically. Sorry if it confused you or if you thought I was trying to make this personal. That wasn't my intention and Ill try to use it less. You are confusing "reform" with "austerity" and using them interchangeably. Nobody doubts reforms need to take place. I already told you I think the EU took the whole austerity thing to far. In the middle of a recession? In the middle of a recession caused by structural overspending and mounting debt, yes it means you have to cut back. Remember Keynesian economics consist of two parts. Spend money when you get into a recession, cut back when you are out of the recession. But what if you get into a recession because all you did was spend and never cut back? Fourth And honestly, austerity has its time and place and Greece definitely needs some of it. With no currency of its own to devalue? Why? It has only managed to increase debt, instead of decreasing it. Is this Greece's fault too? Austerity hasn't increased the debt, the fact that Greece took out billion euro loans to prevent imminent bankruptcy did. Why? Is the EU paying for the unemployment benefits of 50+% Greek youths? Indirectly, yes. Why? It has shrunk the economy by 25% exactly how most economists outside the EU said it would. (Important reminder: Schäuble & Dijsselbloem are amateurs. In and of itself that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if they were any good, however it has proved catastrophic for the EU) It sucks, but what was basically the case is that the Greek economy was overvalued thanks to structural overspending. Greece lived larger than its actual economy would be able to sustain. Then the whole system crashed, the bubble burst and now Greece finds out that its actual economy is 25% smaller than they thought it was. What part of "it's naïve and, in the end, catastrophic to run the economy of a single currency like you would a household" are you having trouble witnessing today 19 Feb 2015? What part of 'Greece definitely needs some of it' don't you understand? Explain to me how making someone poorer is gonna get anyone's money back quicker. Explain to me how you are gonna solve a problem caused by structural overspending through more overspending? Look, personally I can wait for my money. I would be fine with a deal where Greece only has to pay back when its going better and they have more financial breathing room. What matters is that Greece is doing the necessary reforms and some of those reforms do include reducing government spending. But what I fear is that once the rest of the EU cuts Greece some slack, the whole situation returns to 'business as usual' and Greece returns to its bad habits that led to this crisis and they need another cheap loan. And thats unfair, to the rest of the EU who is paying for those cheap loans, and to Greece because the problems don't get fixed. That would be all of two countries: Portugal and Slovakia. And seeing as the average person in Portugal should be begging for this to go through... well that leaves Slovakia. You forget the Baltic states. They paid billions of Euros, they made financial reforms themselves, they are getting through this crisis, and yet Greece expects them to pay without addressing its problem of structural overspending? It is not a Greek Emergency fund. Greece paid "billions" into it too. No EU citizen, as far as I know, got taxed extra for it. Of we got taxed extra for it. Perhaps not directly, but indirectly most definitely. As far as I know, this is nowhere close to being true. The Greek retirement age is still 6 years earlier than in the Netherlands. And please don't get me wrong, I think that raising the retirement age is a stupid idea and we shouldn't be raising it. Thats on our governments. But this is a problem of perception. A good chunk of the people here, the people that bought into this whole neo-liberal idea of how to run an economy see themselves as hard working while they see Greeks as a bunch of lazy people who get to sleep in the sun all day much sooner. Cognitive dissonance. As far as I know, this is nowhere close to being true. Just those that where illegally fired (whatever that means) and nowhere near the majority of all those fired? Again its the problem of perception. It are politicians that make this decision, they need to take into account what the people back at home think, not what is really the case. Or they will suffer in the elections. I know, its stupid, but thats how democracy works. Honestly, this entire crisis has been made worse thanks to the perception of people and the failure of our 'leaders' to actually lead. And there you go with the "you" again. I've never lied my way into anywhere:) And shockingly neither did Greece. You're saying that Greece did not brush up their economic performance (with the help of some American bank) in order to qualify for entry into the Eurozone? |
Darth Beaver Send message Joined: 20 Aug 99 Posts: 6728 Credit: 21,443,075 RAC: 3 |
I wonder if Greece should ask the U.S.A to pay back that 17 trillion and then maybe Greece can pay it's loans off seeing as it wasn't just George saros or the I.M.F or world bank or the E.U not doing due diligence when letting Greece into the E.U , it was the 20 Billion Ponsi and the fraud with sub prime mortgage market collapse that sent Greece , Spain , Ireland and the U.K in a meltdown and where again did both the 20 bill Ponzi and sub prime come from ....now let me think .......stars and stripes is coming to mind ...... |
Darth Beaver Send message Joined: 20 Aug 99 Posts: 6728 Credit: 21,443,075 RAC: 3 |
Greece , it's funny how we don't learn the lessons of history . Germany was crippled after ww1 buy repatriations to the west and what did they do about it . Tell the world to F off and stoped paying So why is anybody surprised this has happened ? I'm not , 7 years on since the GFC , the bankers have made enough money outa this so make the dept disappear so the world can move on I say , F the greedy bankers they got there money back by now . |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
If you are rooting for the EU's failure, you are rooting for war, poverty and weakness all throughout Europe. You so sure about that? Answer this then: - Germany rejects Greek loan request "The rejection came despite the European Commission calling the Greek request "positive" only minutes earlier." Since when has Germany been the EU? |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
If I was your professor and you handed in that paper (the reply you just sent me) I would be forced to fail you as none of your key points are in any way correct. You are four years behind on your homework so I'm obviously going to have to ask you to hit the books and re-write the whole thing:) I will try to slowly guide you through this process. Let's start off with your first point. Before we do, I'd like to share with you a true story about a professor I know of who failed his civil-engineering student for using the wrong cement mix in the foundations of his building. Superficially it may seem harsh to fail someone on one single point of a complex structure. In reality however such a mistake would be potentially fatal and certainly costly. So today's lesson begins with your first and grandest mistake: John Maynard Keynes and your understanding of macroeconomics. Remember, this is just a guide to put you on the right track. You will have to do the rest of the research yourself:) Here is a typical and popular Keynesian analysis: "Economists and the EU bureaucrats who advocate a slavish adherence to arbitrary compliance numbers fail to comprehend the basis of government spending. In imposing these voluntary financial constraints on government activity, they deny essential government services and the opportunity for full employment to their citizenry. Harsh cuts, tax increases — this is by no means a recovery policy. The capital markets have got their pound of flesh. But Greece is no more able to reduce its deficit under these circumstances than it is possible to get blood out of a stone. Politically, it means ceding control of EU macro policy to an external consortium dominated by France and Germany. Greece becomes a colony. Nor will the policies work, as the ’strict enough conditions’ imposed will further weaken demand in Greece and, consequently, the rest of the European Union. Meanwhile, Greece and the rest of the Euro zone is being revealed as necessarily caught in a continual state of Ponzi style financing that demands institutional resolution of some sort to be sustainable. It’s probably not the sort of invitation that any sovereign nation would normally accept, but Greece, like the rest of the Euro zone nations, has voluntarily chosen to enslave itself with a bunch of arbitrary rules which have no basis in economic theory. It is also being denied the use of an independent currency-issuing capacity. This is no way for any country to achieve growth and financial stability. With no capacity to set monetary policy, fiscal policy bound by the Maastricht straitjacket, and its exchange rate fixed, the only way Greece or any of the euro zone nations can change their competitive position within the EMU is to harshly bash workers’ living conditions. That is a recipe for national suicide. And it will not reduce the deficit... That the measures will be imposed by an entity lacking total democratic legitimacy in Greece is only likely to exacerbate existing strains. This is the kind of thinking which has led to the relatively poor economic performance of many of the EU economies during the 1990s and most of the previous decade. All entrants to EMU strived to meet the stringent criteria embodied in the Stability Pact (whose principles, although largely formalized by the Maastricht Treaty in 1997, were essentially established at the beginning of the 1990s in preparation for monetary union). From 1992 to 1999, the growth of national income averaged 1.7 percent per annum in the euro-zone countries, compared with the 2.5 percent per annum averaged by the United Kingdom over the same time period. Moreover, the unemployment rate fell substantially in the United Kingdom (as well as in the United States and Canada), but tended to rise in the euro-zone countries, most notably in France and Germany. A cavalier refusal by the EU’s technocrats to debate and address the concerns of those who feel threatened by a headlong rush into a more all-encompassing political and monetary union without adequate democratic safeguards has lent legitimacy to the views of populist politicians, such as France’s Jean Marie le Pen, and a corresponding rise of extremist parties all across the EU. This is a phenomenon that tends to arise when voters sense that their concerns are not even being considered by what they would characterize as a corrupt and cozy political class. And yet this kind of deficit-bashing insanity is spreading like a cancer across the global economy. We all should know when the economy is in trouble. High unemployment; sluggish growth in output, productivity, wages; high inflation etc., these are all things which have meaning to us on an individual and collective basis. A budget deficit, by contrast, is just a number. It’s akin to blaming the thermometer when it registers that someone has a flu bug. Any doctor would legitimately be called a quack if he proposed a cure for influenza by sticking the thermometer in a bucket of ice until we got the right “reading†that was deemed to be acceptable to him." --- I have purposely cut-up the above article so any intelligent reader would say, "hindsight is a wonderful thing". But since it was written with foresight*, your punishment for today is to pick up the chalk and write on the blackboard 100 times: "Schäuble & Dijsselbloem are quacks. They might actually be the death of the EU, the one organization that has brought unprecedented peace, prosperity and understanding to our continent." *Thursday, 02/11/2010 Greece Signs its National Suicide Pact |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Since when has Germany been the EU? Since the beginning. Germany wants to be the leader of the EU. Many member states are complaining about this. I saw a very good docu about EU the other day, "The Great European Disaster Movie" Trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9ZLHi0bRkeU The UK can see it 1st of March on BBC4 Storyville. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
What a superb post. I only wished it was a beautifully cooked Lamb steak with a liberal dose of mint sauce. Many have been saying exactly that about the EU, yet constantly ridiculed & told: - You're not a politician - you can't see the bigger picture You're not an economist - you can't see the bigger picture The "big" picture is this & even the blind can see it: - "This is a phenomenon that tends to arise when voters sense that their concerns are not even being considered by what they would characterize as a corrupt and cozy political class." |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Get out & smell the roses, you need it! As seen in Greece, it's happening elsewhere within the Eurozone as well... Highest since 2001 "The report added that research suggested that "the recent recession in the UK could be an influencing factor in the increase in suicides" and that "areas with greater rises in unemployment had also experienced higher rises in male suicides"." |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Researchers say anything that will get past their peers. Posting stupid cartoons when it is a real worry to many is asinine. I have to attend a funeral next week due to the system letting down & badly at that, a man who worked all his life without any gap in employment until he was forced to give up his job due to serious medical issues. Had many so called friends enjoying his company while he was flush, but never visited when low on funds. After spending 30 years on the railways, ignorant of technology, gave up on the 28th January 2015. With the assistance of a fellow cruncher who provided informative advice, the Bereavement Office looked into the man's affairs. He is now getting a decent send off with his "real" friends attending. His "acquaintances" are now coming out of the woodwork now that "MONEY" is involved. Over the last several years "Stiff letters of complaint" are & have been proven to be useless. No next of kin can be located so posted on Facebook to show that he existed. Also, as in Greece with what Austerity has done to them, I was gobsmacked only recently to find that "our" benefits system actually pays an extra £30 to alchies & druggies WTFH? You really do need to smell the roses, preferably at ground level rather than that ivory tower you sit in. That's the 3rd in my social circle in less than 10 months - all of them hard working men. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Reading some of the stuff here in enough to make anyone jump off a cliff. THose in Greece as well. Greece already has :) NEW YORK -SEP 26, 2014– “If the facts don’t fit the theory, change the theory,†goes the old adage. But too often it is easier to keep the theory and change the facts – or so German Chancellor Angela Merkel and other pro-austerity European leaders appear to believe. Though facts keep staring them in the face, they continue to deny reality. Austerity has failed. But its defenders are willing to claim victory on the basis of the weakest possible evidence: the economy is no longer collapsing, so austerity must be working! But if that is the benchmark, we could say that jumping off a cliff is the best way to get down from a mountain; after all, the descent has been stopped." -Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel laureate in economics and University Professor at Columbia University Europe’s Austerity Zombies |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
That's the 3rd in my social circle in less than 10 months - all of them hard working men. That's terrible! I'd be devastated. Probably a bit depressed and angry too... |
Darth Beaver Send message Joined: 20 Aug 99 Posts: 6728 Credit: 21,443,075 RAC: 3 |
Since the Abbott Liberal party came to power and started there version of Austerity here in Australia unemployment has now gone to 6.8% , the budget has blown out buy double and the economy is going soft . Austerity does not work . Or is Austerity just class war fare ? Lower pay rates , less benefits , less services , less jobs to keep the rate down . I bet your all saying WTF , well this is what is happening here in Australia but because the Lib's are one term wonders there trying to change all there policy's BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALL BACKFIRED , guess one or 2 of the LNP should not have let it slip it's about a class warfare and not economics after all make a mess then you can make heaps of cash fixing it all up while the poor get poorer and the rich get richer . EDIT: I herd on the grapevine so to say that the LNP where even prepared to destroy the economy to win the class war , they just forgot that the real power is and always will be with the people , but then what can you expect from Arrogance = Stupidity |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19099 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
Could it be that Angela Merkel has to maintain the hard austerity line, or loos her job. The BBC has a page about the German Press reaction. Greece crisis: German press short on patience |
Darth Beaver Send message Joined: 20 Aug 99 Posts: 6728 Credit: 21,443,075 RAC: 3 |
Me think the Germans need to be reminded of what happened in the 1930 when there own government told the world no more repatriations . And look at what all that debt did to Germany after wwi ....Hitler was able to rise to be the most powerful man in Germany and then started wwII. |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Could it be that Angela Merkel has to maintain the hard austerity line, or loos her job. Yeah sure, maybe. But if the German Press, or worse its people, think the only way to run all its EU colonies is by acting like a psychopath then it would make more sense for Germany to walk out. That way everybody, everywhere keeps their jobs and Merkel & Co. is/are declared a national hero. Psychopathy in the workplace (Unfortunately there is no Wiki on "Psychopathy in politics") Behavioral patterns --------------------------- The workplace psychopath may show a high number of the following behavioral patterns. The individual behaviors themselves are not exclusive to the workplace psychopath; though the higher number of patterns exhibited the more likely he or she will conform to the psychopath's characteristic profile:
Malicious spreading of lies (intentionally deceitful) Remorseless or devoid of guilt Frequently lies to push his/her point (The Myth of a Lazy Southern Europe: Merkel's Clichés Debunked by Statistics) Rapidly shifts between emotions - used to manipulate people or cause high anxiety Intentionally isolates persons from organizational resources Quick to blame others for mistakes or for incomplete work even though he/she is guilty Encourages co-workers to torment, alienate, harass and/or humiliate other peers Takes credit for other peoples accomplishments (It is only thanks to the United States, which sacrificed vast amounts of money...) [Glenn, this one's for you! :) ] Steals and/or sabotages other person's work (Beggar thy neighbour) Refuses to take responsibility for misjudgments and/or errors Threatens any perceived enemy with job loss and/or discipline in order to taint employee file Sets unrealistic and unachievable job expectations to set employees up for failure Refuses or is reluctant to attend meetings with more than one person Very self-centered and extremely egotistical (often conversation revolves around them - great deal of self-importance) Will do whatever it takes to close the deal (no regards for ethics or legality) |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Not relevant as 2 were late spring & mid summer. @Alex Devastated & angry? No. Just saddened that those who worked hard all their lives get kicked in the teeth by useless stuffed shirts, while those who have not earned any help get handed a fistful of money. Nice one Yanis "His critics argue now is the time that Greece needs to win concessions through careful diplomacy and delicate alliance-building. And, they say, Yanis Varoufakis is too abrasive a character to achieve it. Certainly he has his admirers - but Wolfgang Schaeuble doesn't appear to be one of them." Yanis 1 Wolfgang 0 |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
"The rightwing orthodoxy that dominates thinking in Brussels has asserted itself over the hapless Greeks. A deal that allows the eurozone policymakers, the International Monetary Fund and the government of Athens to keeping talking next week is the first stage in a clampdown on anti-austerity sentiment. That much was clear from the statements coming out of Brussels, not least those from Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s veteran finance minister, who indulged himself with some patronising comments to show where the power lies. “Being in government is a date with reality, and reality is often not as nice as a dream,†was the quip he delivered with a smile, one that is usually omitted from diplomacy school." Yeah, we've seen that smile before... OJ had one just like it in court ;) Schäuble patronizing? /s I really am a bit surprised though that he's not smart enough to know when someone is a lot smarter than him. Not to mention that Varoufakis is quite the opposite of a dreamer. He's disarmingly pragmatic, humble, down to earth and revolves around a circle of intellectual giants. He'd score terribly on the psychopathy test above... Not to mention that his priorities are EU first, not Greece. I had pegged Schäuble as exceptionally dangerous, but I hadn't pegged him as an idiot. Oh well. Deutschland über alles, I guess. C'est la vie |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Greek debt Deal ""We are compiling a list of measures to make the Greek civil service more effective and to combat tax evasion," he told Greece's Mega Channel." Be much better if all in the Eurozone did that! |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
Greece has corruption and their large budget deficits and are now forced to ask for financial support. Alexandra Pascalidou, 39, a journalist. Published recently in "My Big Fat Greek Cookbook"
The envelope is called 'fakelaki'. I met a lawyer in Athens in 1974 and he didn't pay tax at all! |
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