There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

Get real!
Actually its more easy to use a real gun then a computer controller to hit a target lets say 30 feets away.
Its almost impossible to miss! Even for young kids who are probably not so nervous in the situation.
Remember that the Cleveland officer shooting 12-year-old Tamir Rice within seconds was a rookie.
This events happens also in my country.
And I do think in the Netherlands as well.

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

Мишель...

After you fire a 9MM handgun: Then return to this Thread, and Post your experience. You may be shocked how easy it is to fire rapidly.

The recoil is very limited and the Report (sound) is not like the Hollywood Movies. There is no BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, nor related sound effects. It is just a pop, pop, pop.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are not what you believe.

You refuse to LEARN anything from those with Training and Experience.

I have a Ruger Redhawk in .44 magnun That I use for hunting that has some recoil. Makes a 9mm or a .45 auto seem like a .22 rimfire.
Back when I shot the .44 every weekend at 100 yards at a 8" plate, Hitting 5 out of six with my then young eyes. I was allway bleeding from a cut on my trigger finger. Finally smartend up and used a bandaid on that finger.
Dont beieve the TV or Hollywood crap on how a weapon recoils. They are there to entertain you not give you reality. Same goes for xbox war games. You dont get a do over in real combat. You live or are dead.

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[/quote]

Old James

Get real!
Actually its more easy to use a real gun then a computer controller to hit a target lets say 30 feets away.
Its almost impossible to miss! Even for young kids who are probably not so nervous in the situation.

In games, I can reliable make headshots over distances of over several hundred meters. I can use high powered sniper rifles, while standing on my feet, use a scope, have that scope not move at all and blow someones head off at over several hundred meters. The same is true for assault rifles allthough their effective distance is more limited. You think thats realistic? You think real guns are even easier to use like that?

Oh but that are rifles, thats different. Pistols are much easier to use. Yeah sure, they are easier to use. But in games you see people dual wielding pistols and still retaining perfect accuracy. Or just wielding a pistol in one hand. There are some games that portray pistols a bit more realistic in the sense that they are held in both hands. But those games give pistols insane accuracy allowing me to headshot people with a pistol at a ridiculous range again.

The simple fact is that violence in games is just completely unrealistic in 99% of the cases. Really, the few games that start to approach real life realism when it comes to violence are games like ArmA or Operation Flashpoint. I played those games and no, its not exactly easy to kill people in those games. And even in those games, its far more easy than in real life.

Remember that the Cleveland officer shooting 12-year-old Tamir Rice within seconds was a rookie.

That is no excuse. A police officer is supposed to be properly trained in the use of force and in understanding when force is appropriate.

This events happens also in my country.
And I do think in the Netherlands as well.

Police shooting 12 year olds? Hmm I couldn't find any instances of that. The youngest I could find was someone of 14 who got shot in the legs by the police. The youngest one I could find that got killed by the police was 17. I found some other instances of the police shooting at minors but apparently in almost all of those cases they survived. Dutch police violence instructions are based on keeping people alive, not killing them.

Мишель...

After you fire a 9MM handgun: Then return to this Thread, and Post your experience. You may be shocked how easy it is to fire rapidly.

Hardly. I know how fast a semi auto can fire.

The recoil is very limited and the Report (sound) is not like the Hollywood Movies. There is no BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, nor related sound effects. It is just a pop, pop, pop.

Again, I know what they sound like (sound is one of the few things games do get right about guns). And sure, recoil isn't like firing one of those handcannons. But those arent the only things that affect accuracy. I mean, have you ever tried just holding a gun steady? I've tried, and I can't do it. I mean its not like Im waving it all over the place, but Im pretty sure I'd have a lot of trouble keeping it straight. I would need training before I would be accurate with a 9mm. And mind you, I did this with an airsoft gun, a cheap one. Those things are plastic and weigh nothing. I can imagine that if I were to try this with a real 9mm gun, fully loaded, my accuracy would be even worse. And if I were to be in a stressful situation (like someone pointing a gun at me and yelling), yeah no way I could hit anything beyond point blank range.

Hell, even take a look at Darren Wilson. The guy shot 12 shots and only hit 6 times. And he was shooting at pretty much point blank range and he is supposed to have at least some basic fire arm training. So, guns in the hands of untrained, 12 year olds? Yeah, if they are going to hit anything, its more likely by accident.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are not what you believe.

You refuse to LEARN anything from those with Training and Experience.

Oh no, you forget that I have my own experiences as well.

Same goes for xbox war games. You dont get a do over in real combat. You live or are dead.

Exactly my point. Video games do not in any way prepare you for real life combat nor do they help you become better at shooting real guns.

Who - NO ONE - was speaking of accuracy.

Except all those people that claimed shooting is totally as easy as it is in video games. And that video games somehow train you in firing an actual gun.

You have been completely incorrect regarding HOW FAST a low powered handgun can be fired by ANYONE. Even those with NO EXPERIENCE.

You brought up a revolver. Which typically fires slower if Im not mistaken. You can fire those things pretty fast, but again, that requires training and experience. Things a 12 year old child probably lacks.

Why not admit you were incorrect?

Whatever, youre right, you shoot a revolver pretty quickly.

Answer: Ideology and Ego trump Facts and Truth.

What ideology?

Who - NO ONE - was speaking of accuracy.

Except all those people that claimed shooting is totally as easy as it is in video games. And that video games somehow train you in firing an actual gun.

You have been completely incorrect regarding HOW FAST a low powered handgun can be fired by ANYONE. Even those with NO EXPERIENCE.

You brought up a revolver. Which typically fires slower if Im not mistaken. You can fire those things pretty fast, but again, that requires training and experience. Things a 12 year old child probably lacks.

A big difference between a 9mm pistol and a revolver is that the range of light bullets are much larger in caliber 9 mm in than caliber .38.
Bullets for 9mm are available from 80 grains (5.19 grams) and up, but the bullets in .38 caliber usually begins in the weights round 148 grains (9.59 grams).
But a 12 old year child is fully capable to use a pistol and kill peoples unless he has some disability of some kind.

1: Correct, but in the hands of an experienced handler, so small that it would not make a difference.

3: Correct.

2: Sorry, have to disagree here. The gun is never the danger, the holder always will be.

#1 - Anyone who knows guns, knows: Revolvers fire FASTER than Semi-Automatics. Semi-Automatic's must 'Recycle' before it will fire again. The difference in speed is small, but it is A FACT.

Therefore, you will, of course, acknowledge your ignorance of the guns we are speaking of. NOT!

Okay, I stand corrected, revolvers fire faster. Happy now?

#2 - Firing these weapons does NOT require any training, nor experience. The Gun is the danger. Not the holder.

Will you acknowledge THIS FACT? No!

Oh now its dangerous? I have it on good authority that 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'. So anyways, if guns are dangerous and not the holder, then why does the holder get shot?

#3 - You are correct that 'Shot Placement' requires training and experience.

This correlates with the danger of the person holding a gun. A guy with a gun and who doesn't know how to use it will have a hard time hitting and killing the people he is aiming at. It makes the situation dangerous yes, but at the same time it should also give the police some time to deescalate the situation and resolve it peacefully, without anyone getting killed.

This correlates with the danger of the person holding a gun. A guy with a gun and who doesn't know how to use it will have a hard time hitting and killing the people he is aiming at. It makes the situation dangerous yes, but at the same time it should also give the police some time to deescalate the situation and resolve it peacefully, without anyone getting killed.

Not always possible.

1: Correct, but in the hands of an experienced handler, so small that it would not make a difference.

3: Correct.

2: Sorry, have to disagree here. The gun is never the danger, the holder always will be.

Have looked down the barrel of a gun too many times.

Without the weapon, the 'Holder' is NO DANGER.

What is the intention of the 'Holder'. Who really knows. Who is a 'Mind Reader'? You may have only a fraction of a second, to 'reasonably' determine if your life is in danger.

Speaking of Civilian Policing, and not Military Combat: Have encountered persons Holding a Gun/Knife. Where we would stare at each other. In an attempt to gauge the future 'actions' of each other. Neither of us could be certain what the other would do, and both will act upon a guess.

There is no time for Reflection, Discussion, nor Reading Law Books. BOTH sides are terrified they may lose their life, and one side may believe killing the Officer is the ONLY way to escape jail.

The above is real life.

Very valid points, but you just confirmed my views of No 2.

Without the weapon, the 'Holder' is NO DANGER. With it, They are the danger & not the gun itself!

1: Correct, but in the hands of an experienced handler, so small that it would not make a difference.

3: Correct.

2: Sorry, have to disagree here. The gun is never the danger, the holder always will be.

Have looked down the barrel of a gun too many times.

Without the weapon, the 'Holder' is NO DANGER.

What is the intention of the 'Holder'. Who really knows. Who is a 'Mind Reader'? You may have only a fraction of a second, to 'reasonably' determine if your life is in danger.

Speaking of Civilian Policing, and not Military Combat: Have encountered persons Holding a Gun/Knife. Where we would stare at each other. In an attempt to gauge the future 'actions' of each other. Neither of us could be certain what the other would do, and both will act upon a guess.

There is no time for Reflection, Discussion, nor Reading Law Books. BOTH sides are terrified they may lose their life, and one side may believe killing the Officer is the ONLY way to escape jail.

The above is real life.

Very valid points, but you just confirmed my views of No 2.

Without the weapon, the 'Holder' is NO DANGER. With it, They are the danger & not the gun itself!

This academic semantic discussion is of no real value when YOUR life is in danger.

That would be valid had I been an academic :-)

As for semantics, who brought it up first?

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Correct.

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Before you answer that try this:

There is a pile of explosive sitting on a table with no one on sight ...

...Is that pile of explosive dangerous?

---

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Before you answer that try this:

There is a pile of explosive sitting on a table with no one on sight ...

...Is that pile of explosive dangerous?

That would depend on whether or not the detonator is active.

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Before you answer that try this:

There is a pile of explosive sitting on a table with no one on sight ...

...Is that pile of explosive dangerous?

That would depend on whether or not the detonator is active.

No, wrong answer. You didn't ask what the explosive was. Not all are stable. But you may assume a primer charge is in place.

---

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Before you answer that try this:

There is a pile of explosive sitting on a table with no one on sight ...

...Is that pile of explosive dangerous?

That would depend on whether or not the detonator is active.

No, wrong answer. You didn't ask what the explosive was. Not all are stable. But you may assume a primer charge is in place.

So what is it doing on the table?

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Before you answer that try this:

There is a pile of explosive sitting on a table with no one on sight ...

...Is that pile of explosive dangerous?

That would depend on whether or not the detonator is active.

No, wrong answer. You didn't ask what the explosive was. Not all are stable. But you may assume a primer charge is in place.

So what is it doing on the table?

It is in the chamber of that gun you put on the table.

---

Answer this question...

A gun, fully loaded, lying on a table with no one in sight...

...Is that gun dangerous?

Before you answer that try this:

There is a pile of explosive sitting on a table with no one on sight ...

...Is that pile of explosive dangerous?

That would depend on whether or not the detonator is active.

No, wrong answer. You didn't ask what the explosive was. Not all are stable. But you may assume a primer charge is in place.

So what is it doing on the table?

It is in the chamber of that gun you put on the table.

The question was: What is the explosive doing on the table...

...or are you subtly saying the explosive is in the cartridge which is in the gun?