Still, the Brits don't like being in so wish to get out, lets hope we do.
People are now stating that they don't care if the UK economy does take a hit
if we leave....the cracks in the EU are getting wider.

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The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Wow, Gavrilo Princip reincarnated!

No, you just hate the EU, so you twist this into a way as more 'evidence' that the EU is dangerous and thus gives you another reason to hate the EU.

You really do need to spend some time in the real world instead of books!

How every nation part of the EU joined it out of their own free will?

I beg you pardon? The UK has never done so. What it did do was to sign up to the EEC.

The EU is not about to launch the Third World war. Again, this is an utterly ridiculous and idiotic comparison.

What planet are you on? I never said it would. For a start, there is no nation within the Eurozone that's got the guts but probably the stupidity to do so. As in the past, European leaders are just windbags full of their own importance, mess up & then go crying to their allies to get them out of that mess.

The impression you are giving is that you are a younger version of Junckers - A Brussels career insider with no courage to face the real world, just bureaucratic B/S day in, day out.

You still haven't answered this...

Putin and his ilk can do nothing to stop it should the EU decide to move forward like that.

Idiotic comparison? That tells even the most ignorant that the EU will do what it wants to achieve it's aims! Isn't that what happened at Munich 1938?

What's your degree in again?

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I beg you pardon? The UK has never done so. What it did do was to sign up to the EEC.

Oh, so there is no British signature under the treaty of Maastricht? There is no British signature under the treaty of Lisbon? Oh right, there is, and no one forced you to sign it. You guys could have simply said that this went to far and that you wanted out. But that didn't happen.

What planet are you on? I never said it would. For a start, there is no nation within the Eurozone that's got the guts but probably the stupidity to do so. As in the past, European leaders are just windbags full of their own importance, mess up & then go crying to their allies to get them out of that mess.

You are the one that keeps insisting on drawing idiotic parallels with 1938/1939 and 'peace in our time' and comparing the EU to Fascism and the Nazis. So sorry for not understanding that you weren't actually referring to the Second World War in your posts.

The impression you are giving is that you are a younger version of Junckers - A Brussels career insider with no courage to face the real world, just bureaucratic B/S day in, day out.

You realize that Junckers until recently was the Prime Minister of Luxembourg right? Not really much of a Brussels career insider. Oh, and he chaired the Eurogroup meetings. A post reserved for national politicians, not EU officials.

And really, you are going to judge him and then compare me to him? You don't know Junckers and you don't know me, so keep the judging to yourself.

You still haven't answered this...

Putin and his ilk can do nothing to stop it should the EU decide to move forward like that.

Idiotic comparison? That tells even the most ignorant that the EU will do what it wants to achieve it's aims! Isn't that what happened at Munich 1938?

What's your degree in again?

And there are the idiotic Second World War comparisons again. What I meant there is that Putin can throw a fit all he likes, but the EU is under no obligation to take his feelings into account. If they want to do that, fine, if they think Putins feelings are irrelevant, that is their judgement call to make. If the EU wants to offer a deal to Ukraine, Putin can't stop the EU from offering the deal. And no, that is not at all what happened in Munich.

And make no mistake, the EU is not special in this regard. National government are generally under no obligation to take other countries feelings into account when conducting foreign policy. And the EU should know, given that it are the national governments who again, have the final say in the foreign policy of the EU. If you think they are reckless because they don't care enough about Putins feelings, you think European governments in general are reckless because they gave the go ahead to the EU.

Oh, so there is no British signature under the treaty of Maastricht? There is no British signature under the treaty of Lisbon? Oh right, there is, and no one forced you to sign it. You guys could have simply said that this went to far and that you wanted out. But that didn't happen.

The British public were sold a lie and that needs to be addressed.
Before we in Britain can go forwards with Europe this lie will have to be settled.
The latter only by us having a re-vote on our membership.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

You poor fool. You really do need to get your head out of the clouds.

Your argument has become stale over the last 70 years just as "Godwin's Law" has become.

Look beyond that fact & look to 1939-1945 again without the words "Nazi's & Fascism".
A major force (which if the fools that lead each nation had maintained their defences rather than wishing to save money so that they could waste that money on their pet projects) which had become strong enough decided they wanted some more "lebensraum". Had the defences of all the other nations been maintained, that move would not have been made. Munich 1938 gave the signal for that to start, history tells us the rest.

In a previous post you stated: -

How every nation part of the EU joined it out of their own free will.

Then you post this: -

Oh, so there is no British signature under the treaty of Maastricht? There is no British signature under the treaty of Lisbon? Oh right, there is, and no one forced you to sign it. You guys could have simply said that this went to far and that you wanted out. But that didn't happen.

Nice democracy! With such important decisions like those treaties, there should have been referendums for the citizens. Had that been done, this conversation would be irrelevant!

Mikhail, I really do think you need to go for a walk & smell the roses, especially after these two comments: -

No, you just hate the EU, so you twist this into a way as more 'evidence' that the EU is dangerous and thus gives you another reason to hate the EU.

And really, you are going to judge him and then compare me to him? You don't know Junckers and you don't know me, so keep the judging to yourself.

As for Juncker...

He's already been judged

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Look beyond that fact & look to 1939-1945 again without the words "Nazi's & Fascism".
A major force (which if the fools that lead each nation had maintained their defences rather than wishing to save money so that they could waste that money on their pet projects) which had become strong enough decided they wanted some more "lebensraum". Had the defences of all the other nations been maintained, that move would not have been made. Munich 1938 gave the signal for that to start, history tells us the rest.

Ah, the hindsight fallacy. Of course, had the entire world known what Hitler would have done back in 1920 they might have decided that it would have been better to keep their armies up to date and standing on alert. But the thing is, they didn't know what Hitler was going to do, and they just fought one of the most horrible wars in history. So can you blame them that most of them were less than thrilled to start another terrible war so soon after?

And no, the Munich conference wasn't about German 'lebensraum', it was about reunifying the German people, by adding the Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia to Germany. Lebensraum was why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union.

In any case, thats all nice, but how on earth relates this in any way to the EU? Is the EU expanding because it wants more Lebensraum? Is it expanding by force or the threat of force? There is simply no way you can compare the two.

Nice democracy! With such important decisions like those treaties, there should have been referendums for the citizens. Had that been done, this conversation would be irrelevant!

It is not the EU's job to organize referendums like that. That is up to the national governments. Don't blame the EU for the shortcomings of your own government. If the British people weren't allowed to vote for it in some kind of referendum, it was because the British government decided against it, not the EU.

Oh and before you start complaining about that as well, the EU can't actually organize a referendum itself. Its simply not within its powers to do such a thing. And why not? Well, the best guess is that national governments would be horrified by the idea that the EU can directly ask the people a question and make it legally binding, thereby completely bypassing the national governments. And in a bunch of countries, this would be completely against the way treaties are ratified (which is usually defined in the constitution, so a referendum would in some countries actually be considered unconstitutional).

So, once again, your blame is completely misplaced.

Mikhail, I really do think you need to go for a walk & smell the roses, especially after these two comments: -

No, you just hate the EU, so you twist this into a way as more 'evidence' that the EU is dangerous and thus gives you another reason to hate the EU.

And really, you are going to judge him and then compare me to him? You don't know Junckers and you don't know me, so keep the judging to yourself.

As for Juncker...

He's already been judged

Well gee, thanks for calling me an alcoholic when you don't actually know me or my drinking habits. Which is rich coming from someone from a place that has a well known massive problem with alcohol.

Nice democracy! With such important decisions like those treaties, there should have been referendums for the citizens. Had that been done, this conversation would be irrelevant!

I agree, to this end Brussels owed a duty of care to it potential new citizens
by making sure all were aware of the implications wrapped up in the treaties.
Did they though???..we all know the answer to that!!

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

It looks like that the CIA is trying to set its own fire in Europe. :-(

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28243933

The German government has ordered the expulsion of a CIA official in Berlin in response to two cases of alleged spying by the US.

The official is said to have acted as a CIA contact at the US embassy, reports say, in a scandal that has infuriated German politicians.

A German intelligence official was arrested last week on suspicion of spying.

An inquiry has also begun into a German defence ministry worker, reports said.

"The representative of the US intelligence services at the embassy of the United States of America has been told to leave Germany," government spokesman Steffen Seibert said.

Everybody does it to everybody. Germans were listening to US Administration Cell Phones, in addition to the normal 'Information Gathering' done among allies. The German reaction is silly.

Understand a 48 Hour 'we are shocked', for their people, reaction. Why continue this?

Russian Energy?

Yes, but the understanding is that when you spy on your ally and partner, you at least make sure no one notices. American spying however has become so blatantly obvious and right in the public's eye that measures need to be taken.

+1

Why do you think they want to destroy net neutrality? you want access, you provide our security services with a "backdoor".

However, the EU is just as bad.

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Germany has much more serious, and immediate problems, than The US.

Trying to distract their people?

Nothing new from a politician.

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Germany has much more serious, and immediate problems, than The US.

Trying to distract their people?

And what problem would that be?

Also, you don't get the Germans do you? Germans are very sensitive to breaches of privacy. They absolutely love their privacy. Just use Google street view in Germany and you will notice that a lot of buildings are blurred out because the owners didn't want their house to be visible to the entire internet. So naturally the US spying on German citizens and making an all around mockery of the concept of privacy is something that greatly annoys them. And this new spying scandal is just another drop in a bucket that is starting to overflow. Just be happy they kicked out the CIA representative instead of the US ambassador.

Just be happy they kicked out the CIA representative instead of the US ambassador.

With what Merkel is trying to achieve, she & the EU don't have the personal or political will to even think of that.

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You're living in a Fantasy World.

Tell you for A FACT, Germany was 'Gathering Information' during the '70s. IN FACT, we would laugh with each other over this. Nothing I have since heard, has shown any change.

Please enter the Real World.

Just because the German State was gathering information and spying on people doesn't mean that the German people on the whole are very sensitive to their privacy.

Another reason why the EU has failed & will never work as it's meant to...

Oops

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Another reason why the EU has failed & will never work as it's meant to...

Oops

The guy is from a far right party. Of course he says horrible things.

But how does that extend to the entire idea behind the EU will not work?

The German State WAS gathering information?

This is just 'Political Show', and the German people are falling for it.

But again, that does not mean that Germans are not sensitive about their privacy.

Also no matter what really happens behind the scenes, openly spying on your allies is just...well 'impolite'. See it as farting in public. Its considered rude, but everyone farts because its a natural bodily function. But if you fart in public, you still have to apologize and other people are allowed to call you out on it. Its socially unacceptable if you tell people to shut up because you know that they fart as well.

Another reason why the EU has failed & will never work as it's meant to...

Oops

The guy is from a far right party. Of course he says horrible things.

But how does that extend to the entire idea behind the EU will not work?

I'll S P E L L I T O U T F O R Y O U so that you'll understand it...

He's an MEP & has a vote does he not?

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Another reason why the EU has failed & will never work as it's meant to...

Oops

The guy is from a far right party. Of course he says horrible things.

But how does that extend to the entire idea behind the EU will not work?

I'll S P E L L I T O U T F O R Y O U so that you'll understand it...

He's an MEP & has a vote does he not?

So? France has the Front Nationale party which consists of extreme right racist, bigots and homophobes. Does France as a concept not work because they got an extreme right wing party in their parliament. The same goes for plenty of other European countries. You conflate a minor element, rip it out of its context, pretend its a big thing and you draw a far reaching conclusion from it. But really, this is just one guy. Did you not read how the rest of the MEP's immediately reacted? They called for him to resign. They instantly condemned every word he said.

You should have made that post after he resigned or was forced to resign. Has he resigned?

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