Black Holes part 2

Author	Message
cov_route Send message Joined: 13 Sep 12 Posts: 342 Credit: 10,270,618 RAC: 0	Message 1415327 - Posted: 13 Sep 2013, 22:56:53 UTC - in response to Message 1415300. Every time I press one of these black controls, labelled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up black to let me know I've done it. ID: 1415327 ·

Bob DeWoody Send message Joined: 9 May 10 Posts: 3387 Credit: 4,182,900 RAC: 10	Message 1415507 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 7:03:27 UTC - in response to Message 1415193. The results of the Drake equation always make me say..So where is everybody? Avoiding us like the plague. Bob DeWoody My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events. ID: 1415507 ·

Julie Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34054 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18	Message 1415520 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 7:57:45 UTC - in response to Message 1415507. The results of the Drake equation always make me say..So where is everybody? Avoiding us like the plague. Lol! Or just too far away and lacking the technology to come and visit us most likely... rOZZ Music Pictures ID: 1415520 ·

Clayton Rayne Send message Joined: 13 Jun 13 Posts: 99 Credit: 63,107 RAC: 0	Message 1415552 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 10:39:16 UTC Why do we always assume that any intelligence out there has to be millions of years in advance of us? The universe if still fairly young with hundreds of billions of active star birth yet to come. Could be that there aren't many intelligent civilizations around simply because they haven't had time to evolve yet. ID: 1415552 ·

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20372 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 1415563 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 10:57:00 UTC - in response to Message 1415552. Last modified: 14 Sep 2013, 10:57:12 UTC Why do we always assume that any intelligence out there has to be millions of years in advance of us? The universe if still fairly young with hundreds of billions of active star birth yet to come. Could be that there aren't many intelligent civilizations around simply because they haven't had time to evolve yet. We might well be "The First"... Searching for that is still worthwhile and profound. Keep searchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 1415563 ·

W-K 666 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19097 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67	Message 1415655 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 18:05:11 UTC - in response to Message 1415552. Why do we always assume that any intelligence out there has to be millions of years in advance of us? The universe if still fairly young with hundreds of billions of active star birth yet to come. Could be that there aren't many intelligent civilizations around simply because they haven't had time to evolve yet. We have only known about radio technology for just over 100 years, so if we detect an artificially produced (not pulsar etc.) radio signal from a star system over 100 light years away, then the life form there will probably be in advance of us. ID: 1415655 ·

Julie Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34054 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18	Message 1415659 - Posted: 14 Sep 2013, 18:20:25 UTC - in response to Message 1415563. Why do we always assume that any intelligence out there has to be millions of years in advance of us? The universe if still fairly young with hundreds of billions of active star birth yet to come. Could be that there aren't many intelligent civilizations around simply because they haven't had time to evolve yet. We might well be "The First"... Searching for that is still worthwhile and profound. Keep searchin', Martin ++1! on both posts rOZZ Music Pictures ID: 1415659 ·

cov_route Send message Joined: 13 Sep 12 Posts: 342 Credit: 10,270,618 RAC: 0	Message 1415804 - Posted: 15 Sep 2013, 3:06:16 UTC The Milky Way is about 13.2 Gy old. Earth is about 4.5 Gy old, life here emerged 4 Gy ago and technological civilization emerged 0 Gy ago. From the one example we have, it looks like life initiates as soon as conditions allow, but it is less clear how long tech civ takes or if it is common. We have one data point: 4 Gy after conditions for life are established, and that takes .5 Gy after planet formation. 13.2 - 4 - .5 = 8.7 Gy which is a reasonable calculation for how tc's have been popping up. There is no particular reason to think we are among the first... if we believe the typical Drake result that there are millions of planets with life in the galaxy. It could be that civilization and technological mastery are flukish. Maybe...in our case the K-T extinction was was a fluke. On the other hand we also know that intelligence and technology are enormous evolutionary advantages, so they should get selected. ID: 1415804 ·

W-K 666 Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19097 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67	Message 1415807 - Posted: 15 Sep 2013, 3:12:11 UTC - in response to Message 1415804. The Milky Way is about 13.2 Gy old. Earth is about 4.5 Gy old, life here emerged 4 Gy ago and technological civilization emerged 0 Gy ago. From the one example we have, it looks like life initiates as soon as conditions allow, but it is less clear how long tech civ takes or if it is common. We have one data point: 4 Gy after conditions for life are established, and that takes .5 Gy after planet formation. 13.2 - 4 - .5 = 8.7 Gy which is a reasonable calculation for how tc's have been popping up. There is no particular reason to think we are among the first... if we believe the typical Drake result that there are millions of planets with life in the galaxy. It could be that civilization and technological mastery are flukish. Maybe...in our case the K-T extinction was was a fluke. On the other hand we also know that intelligence and technology are enormous evolutionary advantages, so they should get selected. Wouldn't the early stars have had to go through several life cycles first, so that the hydrogen and Helium could be transformed into heavier and heavier elements first. Before rocks containing iron and silicon etc. would be available to form rocky planets. ID: 1415807 ·

Clayton Rayne Send message Joined: 13 Jun 13 Posts: 99 Credit: 63,107 RAC: 0	Message 1415809 - Posted: 15 Sep 2013, 3:23:07 UTC - in response to Message 1415804. Last modified: 15 Sep 2013, 3:24:20 UTC The Milky Way is about 13.2 Gy old. Earth is about 4.5 Gy old, life here emerged 4 Gy ago and technological civilization emerged 0 Gy ago. From the one example we have, it looks like life initiates as soon as conditions allow, but it is less clear how long tech civ takes or if it is common. We have one data point: 4 Gy after conditions for life are established, and that takes .5 Gy after planet formation. 13.2 - 4 - .5 = 8.7 Gy which is a reasonable calculation for how tc's have been popping up. There is no particular reason to think we are among the first... if we believe the typical Drake result that there are millions of planets with life in the galaxy. It could be that civilization and technological mastery are flukish. Maybe...in our case the K-T extinction was was a fluke. On the other hand we also know that intelligence and technology are enormous evolutionary advantages, so they should get selected. The early universe was mostly hydrogen with a smattering of helium. Several generations of stars would have had to cycle in order for the heavier elements to be in any kind of reasonable abundance for life to have begun, I would think, because of this, we are still fairly early in the universe's life generating cycle. As time passes more and more life would evolve as conditions (i.e. heavier elements) grows. Methinks the universe is still in its infancy and so is life. ID: 1415809 ·

cov_route Send message Joined: 13 Sep 12 Posts: 342 Credit: 10,270,618 RAC: 0	Message 1415812 - Posted: 15 Sep 2013, 3:33:53 UTC - in response to Message 1415807. Wouldn't the early stars have had to go through several life cycles first, so that the hydrogen and Helium could be transformed into heavier and heavier elements first. Before rocks containing iron and silicon etc. would be available to form rocky planets. It's true. Some of the population I stars (metal-rich like the sun) are 10 Gy old so they have been around long enough to support what I was saying. But you are right it's a further confounding factor in the problem. ID: 1415812 ·

Julie Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34054 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18	Message 1415979 - Posted: 15 Sep 2013, 15:09:08 UTC Methinks the universe is still in its infancy and so is life. 13 billion light years is pretty young seen from a cosmic point of view... rOZZ Music Pictures ID: 1415979 ·

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20372 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 1416854 - Posted: 17 Sep 2013, 13:41:29 UTC - in response to Message 1414617. Last modified: 17 Sep 2013, 13:42:36 UTC So... To break this down into smaller more tasty chunks ;-) Our expert troll remains quiet despite his claimed astronomical credentials... No useful plots or charts from him to enlighten us either. Is he lost to the black hole?... :-( infinite acceleration frame (infinite gravity). [...fluff points snipped...] So, for your "infinite gravity" and for your absolutism: With such infinite gravity, could the rest of our universe even exist? As soon as you are a hair away from the singularity (which has mass) you are no longer experiencing an infinite acceleration frame, "infinite gravity." Now back a bit farther off, to outside the event horizon and it should be obvious a universe can exist. Mmmmm... I sense a confusion of infinite proportions spanning multiple timeframes... So that we can agree on what we are talking about... Are you describing the entire volume of a black hole event horizon a "singularity"?... Please note that my descriptions are for a discrete and continuously collapsing object that is some smaller volume within an event horizon... Just the one point from all that: For there to be "infinite gravity" (due to infinite mass) anywhere in our universe, by the very nature of "infinite", we would all already have instantly succumbed to such an infinite force and already instantly be 'gobbled up' to not exist. Such is the effect of infinite. Contrary to that, we seem to exist. We have one view that suggests "infinite gravity" and ofcourse that is seized upon by the populist trash-tv portrayals. Yet such an "infinite gravity" would have already instantly gobbled us all up along with the rest of our universe. Hence... There is something more to the story... Keep all this simple by not suffering any infinities? Keep searchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 1416854 ·

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20372 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 1417775 - Posted: 19 Sep 2013, 17:10:07 UTC - in response to Message 1416854. Last modified: 19 Sep 2013, 17:10:31 UTC Our expert troll remains quiet despite his claimed astronomical credentials... No useful plots or charts from him to enlighten us either. Is he lost to the black hole?... :-( [...] ... For there to be "infinite gravity" (due to infinite mass) anywhere in our universe, by the very nature of "infinite", we would all already have instantly succumbed to such an infinite force and already instantly be 'gobbled up' to not exist. Such is the effect of infinite. Contrary to that, we seem to exist. We have one view that suggests "infinite gravity" and ofcourse that is seized upon by the populist trash-tv portrayals. Yet such an "infinite gravity" would have already instantly gobbled us all up along with the rest of our universe. Hence... There is something more to the story... Here are hopefully some rather interesting views on that story: Spacetime Diagram of a Black Hole Orbits in Strongly Curved Spacetime Black holes turn into fuzzballs and destroy a thousand sci-fi plots Keep all this simple by not suffering any infinities? Keep searchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 1417775 ·

Julie Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34054 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18	Message 1417790 - Posted: 19 Sep 2013, 17:45:00 UTC Last modified: 19 Sep 2013, 17:45:51 UTC Orbits in Strongly Curved Spacetime Aaarrgghh...formula's!;) This also quite interesting. http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html I bit of sci-fi can also raise our attention sometimes:) http://www.insidescience.org/content/black-hole-cores-may-not-be-infinitely-dense/1020 rOZZ Music Pictures ID: 1417790 ·

ML1 Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 20372 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20	Message 1417917 - Posted: 19 Sep 2013, 23:26:23 UTC - in response to Message 1417790. Last modified: 19 Sep 2013, 23:27:55 UTC Orbits in Strongly Curved Spacetime Aaarrgghh...formula's!;) Nothing too scary in terms of algebra. The real scary bits are the "divide by zero" for certain special conditions for the assumptions made for formulating the formula... I suspect there is something else we do not yet know... This also quite interesting. http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html I bit of sci-fi can also raise our attention sometimes:) http://www.insidescience.org/content/black-hole-cores-may-not-be-infinitely-dense/1020 Thanks for those. But why oh why do the journalists always have to focus so much on and overly emphasis the "sci-fi" bits?!... The quantum loop example described follows more what I suspect will turn out to be the case: Instead of a singularity, they found the center of this black hole only held a region of highly curved spacetime. "This is a clean treatment of what happens inside a black hole, using a quantum theory of gravity," Keep searchin', Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) ID: 1417917 ·

Lynn Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 20 Nov 00 Posts: 14162 Credit: 79,603,650 RAC: 123	Message 1419910 - Posted: 25 Sep 2013, 0:28:09 UTC - in response to Message 1417917. Supermassive black hole last erupted two million years ago, and will again. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/09/130924-supermassive-black-hole-milky-way-space/ Scientists Unravel Secrets of Monster Black Hole at Center of Milky Way ____________________ The universe wastes nothing, it's simply transferred. Lynn ID: 1419910 ·

Julie Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34054 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18	Message 1421052 - Posted: 27 Sep 2013, 17:26:41 UTC Mathematics Links Quantum Encryption and Black Holes rOZZ Music Pictures ID: 1421052 ·

Lynn Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 20 Nov 00 Posts: 14162 Credit: 79,603,650 RAC: 123	Message 1421086 - Posted: 27 Sep 2013, 18:44:22 UTC - in response to Message 1421052. Mathematics Links Quantum Encryption and Black Holes From Julie's, article. The proof suggests that the radiation spit out by black holes may retain information on the dark behemoths. I always thought that way. ____________________ The universe wastes nothing, it's simply transferred. Lynn ID: 1421086 ·

Julie Volunteer moderator Volunteer tester Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34054 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18	Message 1425703 - Posted: 8 Oct 2013, 11:50:57 UTC Hyper Black Hole may have formed the Universe: http://zeenews.india.com/news/space/hyper-black-hole-may-have-formed-the-universe_877171.html rOZZ Music Pictures ID: 1425703 ·

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