Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III


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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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Message 1261103 - Posted: 16 Jul 2012, 12:54:57 UTC

As we pump up our atmosphere to become ever more 'energetic', is this just the beginning of what has been long predicted:


Rain 'almost apocalyptic' for wildlife, says National Trust

... the list of wet weather losers was far longer, and could lead to local extinctions of rare or isolated species, including butterflies.

Puffins drowned

The breeding season has been particularly catastrophic, with sea birds being blown off cliffs by gales and garden birds unable to find food for their young. ...



Video clip: Tornadoes cause chaos in Poland

... Two tornadoes hit counties in Kujawy-Pomorze and Wielkopolska provinces.

More than 100 houses were destroyed and about 400 hectares of trees were felled in Bory Tucholskie national park.

Power lines were also brought down leaving homes cut off and train services disrupted. ...



In other stories, the heavy rain and flooding has caused a flash plague of rats flushed out of their normal nests and hiding holes...

Also, some farms nearby are seeing their crops ruined not directly by the rain, but due to a lack of pollination due to the bees being grounded for so long. Bee keepers are having to feed their hives sugar to keep them going...

Around the northern hemisphere, there are stories of unusual severe rain and flooding. Some time later, you can also expect stories to emerge of unusually dry spells elsewhere...


So... No Arctic ice really is of such little significance?...

And yet we subsidise the fossil fuels industry... Corrupt or what?!


All on our only planet,
Martin


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Message 1261355 - Posted: 17 Jul 2012, 2:23:34 UTC
Last modified: 17 Jul 2012, 2:29:10 UTC

Population growth is not slowing down globaly. It has dimenished in the more educated countries but I don't think you will find more than a couple places in the world where the population is stable, ie. no growth. Added info; There are 20 countries that report zero or negative growth but 19 of them are in one geographical area, Europe, with the other being Japan. Places where the need is the greatest to curb population growth are still increasing at an alarming rate. And I wouldn't credit religion with promoting zero population growth, on the contrary most religions support the "be fruitful and multiply" instructions from God.
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Message 1261896 - Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 17:05:18 UTC

More FUD or what?

Did they really try?
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Message 1262037 - Posted: 18 Jul 2012, 23:36:57 UTC - in response to Message 1261896.

More FUD or what?

Did they really try?

Easier to let bygones be bygones... Despite the lives of a group of honest researchers being trashed and lives threatened for a year or so. All very nasty. All the more so for being so completely unexpected.

But then again, in the world of dishonest industrial FUD, what's the cost of destroying the lives of a few honest people?

VERY NASTY.


Meanwhile, with floods and drought and human forced greater extremes, expect more of this:

US warns of higher crop prices from drought


And... We yet continue to SUBSIDISE fossil fuels burning?

Good sense or blatant corruption?

All in our only world,
Martin

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Message 1265312 - Posted: 28 Jul 2012, 20:50:13 UTC - in response to Message 1262037.

... And... We yet continue to SUBSIDISE fossil fuels burning?

Good sense or blatant corruption?


Analysis: Evidence for climate extremes, costs, gets more local

(Reuters) - Scientists are finding evidence that man-made climate change has raised the risks of individual weather events, such as floods or heatwaves, marking a big step towards pinpointing local costs...


Who pays?...


All in our only world,
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Message 1265883 - Posted: 30 Jul 2012, 14:28:00 UTC
Last modified: 30 Jul 2012, 14:29:06 UTC

And... It is definitely "us" doing it... So definitely that even an ardent arch-'sceptic' belatedly agrees:


Ex-sceptic says climate change is down to humans

A formerly sceptical climate scientist says human activity is causing the Earth to warm, as a new study confirms earlier results on rising temperatures.

In a US newspaper opinion piece, Prof Richard Muller says: "Call me a converted sceptic." ...

... The team argues that the good correspondence between the new temperature record and historical data on CO2 emissions suggests human activity is "the most straightforward explanation" for the warming. ...

... Prof Michael Mann, director of the Earth Science System Center at Penn State University, said that there was "a certain ironic satisfaction" in seeing a study funded by the Koch Brothers "demonstrate what scientists have known with some degree of confidence for nearly two decades: that the globe is indeed warming, and that this warming can only be explained by human-caused increases in greenhouse gas concentrations".

Prof Muller, meanwhile, describes his own change in standpoint as "a total turnaround".

He explained: "These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [IPCC], the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming."

The University of California physics professor added: "I hope that the Berkeley Earth analysis will help settle the scientific debate regarding global warming and its human causes.

"Then comes the difficult part: agreeing across the political and diplomatic spectrum about what can and should be done."




And time runs out ever more quickly... The no-summer-ice-in-the-Arctic is going to be a worldwide experiment that is guaranteed to impact us all. And all in just a small few years...

And that is just one big change being imposed.

And yet we still subsidise the burning of fossil fuels.


All on our only one planet,
Martin
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Message 1266560 - Posted: 2 Aug 2012, 0:17:29 UTC

I'm in the UK and yet it feels like summertime in Florida USA...

Hay ho?

Or "What The Hell?"


All on our only planet,
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Message 1266581 - Posted: 2 Aug 2012, 2:37:54 UTC - in response to Message 1266560.
Last modified: 2 Aug 2012, 2:38:35 UTC

Feels like Summertime in Florida in the UK, Huh ?

I see the girls playing beach volley ball at the London Olympics outdoor stadium all covered up and the sand temperature is at 47 degrees Fahrenheit. That's about 8 degrees Celsius for youse commies.

If I were you, old sod, I would seek credibility by coming out for human-induced global cooling.

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Message 1266592 - Posted: 2 Aug 2012, 3:02:26 UTC - in response to Message 1266581.

William, to paraphrase the folks at Burger King -- this extensive droughts for you.

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Message 1266660 - Posted: 2 Aug 2012, 10:20:40 UTC - in response to Message 1266592.
Last modified: 2 Aug 2012, 10:22:40 UTC

Warmer air will hold more moisture and should have carried a lot of rain inland. Due to global cooling the weather pattern is confused; dumping our water on frigid England and China.


Good to be a little nutty at times !!

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Message 1266683 - Posted: 2 Aug 2012, 11:37:01 UTC - in response to Message 1266581.
Last modified: 2 Aug 2012, 11:37:49 UTC

Feels like Summertime in Florida in the UK, Huh ?

I see the girls playing beach volley ball at the London Olympics outdoor stadium all covered up and the sand temperature is at 47 degrees Fahrenheit. That's about 8 degrees Celsius for youse commies. ...

So, you're suffering your old climate and weather confusions again?

So... You quote London... Which is indeed under rain and cloud recently. In contrast, take your sample just a few miles further west or even a little north (still in the UK) where we have blazing sunshine in the morning until clouds develop in the heat of the day to then sometimes develop into a 'monsoon' for the evening...

So that's more a bite of Florida and India.

Meanwhile, London may well still be cool under it's own smog!


Still our only planet that we are forcibly changing ever more quickly,
Martin
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Message 1266760 - Posted: 2 Aug 2012, 17:40:20 UTC

Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover
Must have been something putting out all that CO2 for that to happen. One thing is sure though, it wasn't man! Oh wait, they said it wasn't CO2 that did the warming. Again, it looks like we know squat about global climate patterns, so we have more FUD based on GIGO models.

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Message 1266932 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 6:46:27 UTC - in response to Message 1266683.
Last modified: 3 Aug 2012, 6:54:29 UTC

...Meanwhile, London may well still be cool under it's own smog!...

I remember reading decades ago (1970's-80's) after London had suffered a harsh winter, that the cause was due to a reduction in pollution.

The theory was that the layer of smog that produced the famous "pea soupers" had also insulated London from its "natural" temperatures. With the population changing from coal fires to gas and electricity for home heating and general pollution reduction, this layer had dissipated reducing its insulating effect and thus causing lower temperatures. (Can any London dweller confirm whether or not the number of "Pea Soupers" has declined since the beginning of the 1950's ?)

Back on Topic
I have never denied that the climate could be changing, it's the "anthro" part I have trouble with. The hysterical predictions such as, the sea level rising by 100 metres, temperatures rising by 10 degrees and the one I love most, "the Earth will reach a 'tipping point' and turn into a second Venus. The list goes on and on. (Some of the links on this page will be broken as the page was produced a few years ago). It is also interesting how some of the studies contradict each other ie. One study will show that "Global Warming" will cause one species to become extinct and another one will show the same species will proliferate.) The classic "We're All Gonna Die" climate change "prediction" would have to be the claim that 4.5 Billion people could die by 2012.

A person would have to be living under a rock to consider the Earth's climate as a static system, in even the recent geological past there have been periods where the Earth has been both warmer and cooler than it is now. Actually it has been both warmer and cooler in the last 2000 years. This puts the natural cycle of varieation well within the period that the "warmists" claim is due to the industrial revolution.

Finally, anyone who says "The Science Is Settled" is obviously only reading half the data. The "science" is definitely NOT settled, nor do "all climatologists agree". For every paper published on the "for" side the is a paper by an equally worthy scientist saying "Noooo". A few minutes on Google is all you need to see this.

There is also some circumstantial evidence that the "warmists" have been cooking the books (climategate anyone?).This paper, released on the 29th of July casts grave doubts on the accuracy of NOAA's US figures. BTW, Having at one time worked on the fringes of High Church Academia I am aware of the fact that scientists can be tempted to "selectively interpret" their data in a way that proves their theory, but never have I seen the amount of blatant data cherry picking, creative modelling and plain junk science (by both sides) on a subject as there is on this one.

During my life I have learned that, the more ferocious the spin doctoring and FUD there is on a subject the less reliable the data that it's based on. This is why my "BS Alarm" goes off at some of the alarmist (I could say hysterical) predictions made by the warmist "true believers". Some of these predictions are so distorted that anyone who did 4 years of Science at a decent high school with an equivalent knowledge of Statistics would see the holes if they bothered to look.

Just who in the devil do I believe ????

T.A.

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Message 1267118 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 17:01:53 UTC - in response to Message 1266760.
Last modified: 3 Aug 2012, 17:02:25 UTC

Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover
Must have been something putting out all that CO2 for that to happen. One thing is sure though, it wasn't man! Oh wait, they said it wasn't CO2 that did the warming. Again, it looks like we know squat about global climate patterns, so we have more FUD based on GIGO models.


Antartica was not allways where it is.
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Message 1267193 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 19:02:47 UTC - in response to Message 1267118.

Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover
Must have been something putting out all that CO2 for that to happen. One thing is sure though, it wasn't man! Oh wait, they said it wasn't CO2 that did the warming. Again, it looks like we know squat about global climate patterns, so we have more FUD based on GIGO models.


Antartica was not allways where it is.

Really?
An intense warming phase occurred 52 million years ago, leading tropical vegetation, including palms and relatives of today's tropical Baobab trees, to grow on the continent’s now frozen coasts.

Moved from the tropics to the pole in 52 million years? That is an average speed of just over 1 mile per hour. Learn something new every day!

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Message 1267197 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 19:12:44 UTC - in response to Message 1267193.

Ain't plate tectonics amazing?
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Message 1267200 - Posted: 3 Aug 2012, 19:20:01 UTC - in response to Message 1267197.

it didn't need to be in the tropics if the world was significantly warmer. If you look at gondwana land, the Antarctic plate was at a much higher latitude than today.

from Wikipedia

About 45 Mya, the Indian Plate collided with Asia, buckling the crust and forming the Himalayas. At about the same time, the southernmost part of Australia (modern Tasmania) finally separated from Antarctica, letting ocean currents flow between the two continents for the first time. Antarctica became cooler and Australia became drier because ocean currents circling Antarctica were no longer directed around northern Australia into the subtropics

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Message 1267467 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 9:40:35 UTC - in response to Message 1266760.
Last modified: 4 Aug 2012, 10:03:22 UTC

Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover
Must have been something putting out all that CO2 for that to happen. One thing is sure though, it wasn't man! Oh wait, they said it wasn't CO2 that did the warming. Again, it looks like we know squat about global climate patterns, so we have more FUD based on GIGO models.

Great mastery of FUD of FUDding there, resplendent with added Disbelief...

If you know anything of that part of the world all that long time ago before Humans, you'll note that the Earth was very much warmer and likely warm enough for palm trees all the way to the poles.

However, note that those conditions were not conducive to us humans being there then.


Note also that if those conditions had remained so, and then we evolved, we all would have evolved for those conditions.

We have what we have now. Part of that now has been a beautiful stability in the world's climate for a few hundred thousand years. That has what has allowed us to evolve and prosper.

Care to smash that overnight?... Our dirty fossil-fuels powered industry is doing so, ever more quickly.


Another typical example for you for your selective FUD:

Climate was HOTTER in Roman, medieval times than now: Study

IPCC has got it all wrong...

Americans sweltering in the recent record-breaking heatwave may not believe it - but it seems that our ancestors suffered through much hotter summers in times gone by...

... Needless to say, prominent alarmist scientists and the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have not taken this view, arguing instead that the well-documented Roman and medieval warm periods may have taken place but either weren't very warm or only happened in limited regions...


... And there is the usual silliness as usual:

Take the time to read the comments or the article itself, and you find that the particular 'grand study' is actually a localised study seized upon by sceptics to mislead. So indeed, that one area was a little warmer. That one area however is not the world and the researchers never claimed that.

So, yet another example of local weather being claimed by the 'sceptics' to be 'world climate'. All in genuine error and ignorance, or in deliberate fraud by the 'sceptic' trash article? Or all just a ruse by the publication to stir 'interest' and 'debate' for the advertisers?

Also note the fraudulent line taken that does NOT include the recent warming trend... And that little graph is just for one special location, NOT THE WORLD as any reader might immediately assume. All very fraudulent in the presentation.


An example of a more measured article is:

The Summer of 2012 -- Too Hot to Handle?

... This past June more than 170 all-time US heat records were tied or broken--many of them originally set in the historically hotter months of July and August. And with a drought plaguing much of the country, the ground is as dry and crispy as a saltine cracker.

By early July, 56% of the contiguous U.S. was experiencing drought. That's the largest percentage in the 12-year record of the U.S. Drought Monitor. Fires scorched over 1.3 million acres across the US in June, reducing hundreds of homes to ashes in the West. ...


And again, much play is made there regarding weather vs climate. Ofcourse a single weather incident taken in isolation cannot be claimed to be climate. The whole idea of describing climate is to take a GLOBAL view...


And so the supposed 'sceptics' continue with their FUD of selectively taking articles and singular incidents in isolation and ignoring everything else.

However, even the sceptics cannot ignore:

Of course global warming is on the tips of many tongues.

"CO2 is up from 280 parts per million in the 19th century atmosphere to 400 parts per million now -- a 43% increase," says NASA climatologist Bill Patzert. "We're emitting six times more carbon from fossil fuel use now than we did 50 years ago. Atmospheric CO2 hasn't been this high in 400,000 years."

Greenhouse gasses like CO2 and methane have higher heat capacities than many other gasses, causing the atmosphere to retain more heat.

"The atmosphere becomes a heat source itself, radiating heat back onto the Earth. 85 to 90% of that heat is absorbed by the oceans, because water has a high heat capacity. So the oceans expand and rise. Global sea levels have risen 8 inches over the past 130 years, and the average surface temperature of the entire earth (land surface temperatures plus ocean temperatures) has increased 1.6 °F. These facts," he asserts, "are unequivocal proof of global warming."


And there is the direct isotope signature in the CO2 in our atmosphere that directly says we humans burnt things to put all the excess pollution there.


And yet the sceptics continue to claim nothing untoward can happen... They just selfishly continue to burn themselves and everyone else around them...

All on our only planet,
Martin
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Message 1267468 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 9:42:21 UTC - in response to Message 1266760.

Antarctica once covered in palm trees scientists discover
Must have been something putting out all that CO2 for that to happen. One thing is sure though, it wasn't man! Oh wait, they said it wasn't CO2 that did the warming. Again, it looks like we know squat about global climate patterns, so we have more FUD based on GIGO models.

Brief summary: usual sceptics misrepresentation ignoring reality.

Note my more complete previous comment.


All on our only planet, in the here and NOW,
Martin

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Message 1267471 - Posted: 4 Aug 2012, 9:55:16 UTC - in response to Message 1266932.
Last modified: 4 Aug 2012, 9:55:54 UTC

... I have never denied that the climate could be changing, it's the "anthro" part I have trouble with. The hysterical predictions such as, the sea level rising by 100 metres, temperatures rising by 10 degrees and the one I love most, "the Earth will reach a 'tipping point'...

Just who in the devil do I believe ????

And there's the big problem with the unbelievable amount of FUD that is polluting the mass media. There's good evidence that a lot of that is very deliberate and funded by the big fossil fuels companies out to boost their profits at our expense...


The CO2 in our atmosphere is directly measured and the isotope proportions clearly show that we humans are pumping all the excess CO2 into the atmosphere as pollution. We are also measurably reducing the oxygen content by the expected amount. (Oxygen is consumed when burning the fossil fuel.)

And as for the tipping points, they are very real and act very quickly. An analogy is to consider a heavily laden ship. Add a little more load, however slowly you like, and you get the same very sudden sinking as the waterline floods over the decks.

However, for that analogy, add a few waves (natural variation), and you can predict the eventual sinking but the exact moment becomes dependant on which last wave finally caused the runaway flooding of the ship's holds.


One 'tipping point' is for the Arctic ice: Ice reflects most of the sunlight and heat. Whereas the sea absorbs most of the sunlight and heat and warms, melting more ice more quickly, that exposes more sea to then warm more quickly to then progress ever faster in a runaway positive feedback process...

That's one tipping point that is directly happening now. Once the Arctic is ice-free, conditions have to become extreme for the ice to form again.

We used to have ice there that had been there for millennia...

There's other examples that releases frozen methane. (Or rather, its only slowly unfreezing so far...)


This is our only planet,
Martin
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects, Environment, etc part III

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