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Profile John Clark
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Message 1155776 - Posted: 24 Sep 2011, 23:07:59 UTC
Last modified: 24 Sep 2011, 23:17:39 UTC

You did not prove your point in my view.

Your posts towards the two discussions from both Chris and myself reinforces my view I am dealing with a person wanting to argue minutia. This minutia wants others to prove statements (not a claim) using third party independent links, and this in a discussion thread (not a debating society).

The fact we are making points from our own experience of the times 50 or more years ago are personal, and need no independent academic verification. Indeed, many other posters of our age group, but possibly younger, make the same observations. Taken together these views do constitute a common view of how things have changed.

In the discussion here points have been made about ethnic differences of the Travellers, most of which are correctly accepted by UK society. None of these need a proof, they are a discussion and not an academic dissertation where proofs are required for your degree/diploma/higher degree.

I certainly know that when I am putting R&D project together for submission, that to make a claim I need to validate this with independent proof. For example "The state of the technology art" currently available, and the capabilities and limitations of that technology against the R&D specifications of which I want to develop. This will include full IPR research, comment and disclosure.

For these R&D project submissions, getting it right will result in good assessor scores and recommendations of support. Successful support usually results in external support to the tune of £1.1million. Now that is worth going for.

Trying to obtain the same rigor in this thread is subjective, at best, and opinion most of the time. This is true when considering the backing links claiming proof, which, when being examined, are opinion in themselves.

When discussions turn to minutia and, really opinion or trivia, then the instigator is leaning to trolling. But, more importantly, the thread is still a discussion and there is no real motivation to argue.

I do believe you are effectively trolling by the attitude, application and approach you take here. So, I am not really inclined to withdraw either of my comments. But, in this instance I will withdraw the comment, with massive reservations over my action.

NB: Sarge assumed I know who you are, a position I am unable to confirm. Perhaps you can enlighten me?


I will be interested, but not necessarily respond, to your reply to this post. From past replies I can see deliberate misunderstanding and obfuscation. But, then I am probably significantly biased in my expectations already.

Now back to the subject under discussion in this thread - The Dale Farm Travellers appeal against their eviction! Also, discussions, views, observations on their possible ethnic origins or groups involved.
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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1155895 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 8:28:33 UTC

I think that adequately puts that matter to bed. See my suggestion elsewhere.

Now back to the Travellers, we will know more tomorrow when the court re-convenes, and later in the week about the other submission made.

At the moment this is mainly confined to the UK, but I wonder if the eventual ruling and outcome will have ramifications on similar situations in other countries.

Profile John Clark
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Message 1155907 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 9:08:41 UTC

Agreed Chris, this is a UK issue and will have implications for other similar "in the green belt" settlements. Which, from anecdotal evidence, may have risen years ago from a change in the law, and strong enforcement, back in Ireland.

The most likely effect any enforcement, or other on Dale Farm illegal settlers, might be a view by the elected officials in other countries who have similar issues to the UK in this regard.

Regarding my spat, I will continue our conversation by PM as there are other things to learn.
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Sirius B
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Message 1155961 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 13:46:37 UTC - in response to Message 1155776.

Absolutely well put....& that statement covers other topics on this forum. There seems to be too many trolls ignoring the discussuion in question & demanding verifying proof as if these forums are taking place in courtrooms.
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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156031 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 17:33:32 UTC - in response to Message 1155961.
Last modified: 25 Sep 2011, 17:34:22 UTC

Absolutely well put....& that statement covers other topics on this forum. There seems to be too many trolls ignoring the discussuion in question & demanding verifying proof as if these forums are taking place in courtrooms.


I agree with you too Sirius, this is a forum and not a court room.

Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1156089 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 21:30:48 UTC

I hear everything you are saying Gentlemen, and some fair points have been, and are being made, but I would be grateful if we could please take those issues somewhere else now. I really would like to leave this particular thread focused upon tomorrows outcome of the Court case.

Depending upon what happens it could have far reaching effects upon the UK, and indeed maybe upon other countries. That is the more important point, and it would be a real shame if the Mods felt they had to lock it.

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Message 1156108 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 22:39:08 UTC - in response to Message 1156089.

Depending upon what happens it could have far reaching effects upon the UK, and indeed maybe upon other countries. That is the more important point, and it would be a real shame if the Mods felt they had to lock it.


Agreed. Could you add a little detail on the far reaching effects? So far I had thought that this was confined to what is effectively a planning permission dispute and was being assessed on that basis regardless of what the celebrity supporters may say. Is there a human rights element that is now within the scope of the court's decision?
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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Profile John Clark
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Message 1156121 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 23:22:27 UTC

I believe you are right in that statement, Bobby.

This is now an issue over planning.

I speculate that the 10 year delay on the final eviction has come about from the UK Human Rights Act. I have no proof, but there are many news articles reporting on the Dale Farm appeals under the Human Rights. This could be presumed to be the main reason for these delays.

Supposition and opinion on my part.
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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156124 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 23:30:53 UTC - in response to Message 1156121.
Last modified: 25 Sep 2011, 23:31:40 UTC

I believe you are right in that statement, Bobby.

This is now an issue over planning.

I speculate that the 10 year delay on the final eviction has come about from the UK Human Rights Act. I have no proof, but there are many news articles reporting on the Dale Farm appeals under the Human Rights. This could be presumed to be the main reason for these delays.

Supposition and opinion on my part.


Not much of an Act John if it takes 10 years to clear some of it's hurdles though.
It's taken far too long in resolving this current travelers issue irrespective of whether the Gypsies have or have not broken the law.

Sirius B
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Message 1156125 - Posted: 25 Sep 2011, 23:36:27 UTC - in response to Message 1156124.

Simple enough answer & maybe we'll be able to get Britain back on an even keel again.....

...repeal the "Human Rights Act"
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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156135 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 0:08:49 UTC - in response to Message 1156125.
Last modified: 26 Sep 2011, 0:12:25 UTC

Simple enough answer & maybe we'll be able to get Britain back on an even keel again.....

...repeal the "Human Rights Act"


That's what many people are asking for. But on repeal it will only
get replaced by another form of act. One so designed to help contradict
current other laws such that it will still afford solicitors, barristers
and judges the opportunity to earn fortunes from it. Lets face it, most
of our politicians tend to come from this fraternity so will make sure
the act is so unworkable that the profession will gain from it. ***** comes
to mind here, the Cheshire cat one, gained handsomely by having the other
half sat in "you know where" for many years.

Sirius B
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Message 1156140 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 0:18:03 UTC - in response to Message 1156135.

Oh you mean the "B-Liar Witch Project"....never seen it, probably just as bad as the real McCoy.....
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Message 1156145 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 0:25:25 UTC - in response to Message 1156125.

...repeal the "Human Rights Act"


Isn't that like turkeys voting for Christmas?

Sirius B
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Message 1156155 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 0:55:04 UTC - in response to Message 1156145.

...repeal the "Human Rights Act"


Isn't that like turkeys voting for Christmas?



Oh it'll happen & a lot sooner than many will expect. The EU has been given 6 weeks to save the Euro & due to the cumbersome quangos/committees involved, it won't be saved. Then europe will be saved.

THEN britain can repeal all those useless EU laws that have helped to cripple this country....

AH Bisto..Xmas come early......
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Profile Chris SProject donor
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Message 1156214 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 9:19:00 UTC
Last modified: 26 Sep 2011, 9:22:15 UTC

Thanks everyone for coming back on track, it is appreciated, and I know some of us are happily chatting off-line about a few points made.

Agreed. Could you add a little detail on the far reaching effects? So far I had thought that this was confined to what is effectively a planning permission dispute and was being assessed on that basis regardless of what the celebrity supporters may say. Is there a human rights element that is now within the scope of the court's decision?


It is estimated that there are a large number of illegal Traveller sites in the country mainly in Essex and the South, but I don't have exact numbers. See this report from 2009 Numbers. Many other Councils are therefore in the same position as Basildon are. If the eviction ruling is upheld and carried out, then it will give the impetus for other Councils to tackle their own problems in the same way, citing the Dale Farm decision. That is what I meant by far reaching effects.

This matter as you correctly surmise, was initially a planning permission dispute, which the Travellers always knew they wouldn't win, as the law has demonstrably been broken. The only chance they had to try and stay there, was to play the human rights card, and try and convince people that they were a persecuted ethnic minority, being unfairly treated against their human rights. Some high profile tree huggers duly got involved, but seem to have been a bit quiet lately.

I wouldn't have thought that the human rights issue was within the courts judgment area. Their job as I see it is to review and decide, whether Basildon Council have the legal authority to evict the Travellers from the site. But of course they also have a responsibility to ensure that if so, it is done in a responsible and professional manner, with the minimum of force used, and due regard being given to children and the elderly.

Whether or not the existing human rights act should be repealed is a matter for another thread, not here.

One article I apparently missed during the week was this one, that says that the intended re-location for the Travellers will be in Luton. But since that was written, many have returned back to Dale Farm after Fridays stay of judgment. If that is their last ditch plan, it will be interesting to see what Luton Council do about it. Luton site

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Message 1156249 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 12:07:13 UTC - in response to Message 1156214.
Last modified: 26 Sep 2011, 12:07:34 UTC

Good points Chris, however, the Human Rights Act has a huge bearing on this case whether we like it or not, so a seperate thread is not needed as its part & parcel of the whole debate.
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Message 1156270 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 13:43:42 UTC

It's all off again until a later hearing.

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Sirius B
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Message 1156282 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 14:31:39 UTC - in response to Message 1156270.

Yep, lawyers...another continuing waste of taxpayers money & they're not bothered as they get paid regardless.
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Message 1156294 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:31:42 UTC - in response to Message 1156249.
Last modified: 26 Sep 2011, 15:33:45 UTC

Good points Chris, however, the Human Rights Act has a huge bearing on this case whether we like it or not, so a seperate thread is not needed as its part & parcel of the whole debate.


I'm not sure that the residents of Dale Farm have raised the matter as a breach of their Human Rights under any of the relevant legislation. I've attempted to review all the articles that have been posted to this thread, and cannot confirm that it is noted in any of them that this has happened (though, of course, I may have missed something). The wikipedia article on Dale Farm does note that the UN has had some interest in whether the Human Rights of the Dale Farm residents have been protected under the various UN treaties that the UK is a signatory to, though it may not be a complete record on the subject.

The UN has stated:

The UK has been the object of an enquiry from CERD under the
early warning and urgent action procedure. During its 76th session
in February 2010, CERD considered the impending eviction of an Irish and Romani Traveller community from Dale Farm in Essex.
The committee expressed concern that the planned eviction of the Traveller community from Dale Farm might imply a breach of Article 5 e (iii), guaranteeing the right to housing.


It is not clear from what I've seen thus far that the UN's view on this matter is part of the criteria being used to assess the planning dispute.
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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1156296 - Posted: 26 Sep 2011, 15:34:36 UTC - in response to Message 1156140.

Oh you mean the "B-Liar Witch Project"....never seen it, probably just as bad as the real McCoy.....


Sirius, I could not possibly say..."nudge-nudge wink-wink."

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