UK Riots

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Profile Michael John Hind
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Message 1159889 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 19:17:23 UTC - in response to Message 1159885.  

I wounder if the statement, "The more we tolerate the lower our standards become" is applicable too to days way of life?


It's a new one on me, and it appears to imply intolerance leads to higher standards. There may well be circumstances where this is appropriate, though I'd think it is somewhat deficient as a universal maxim.


To be intolerate to low standards should lead us in the direction of adopting higher standards.

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Message 1159909 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 19:42:11 UTC - in response to Message 1159889.  

I wounder if the statement, "The more we tolerate the lower our standards become" is applicable too to days way of life?


It's a new one on me, and it appears to imply intolerance leads to higher standards. There may well be circumstances where this is appropriate, though I'd think it is somewhat deficient as a universal maxim.


To be intolerate to low standards should lead us in the direction of adopting higher standards.


But who gets to decide the standards, and who gets to decide if they're "higher"? Is it then not OK to disagree with the standard/status quo?
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Message 1159915 - Posted: 7 Oct 2011, 20:01:38 UTC - in response to Message 1159909.  

I wounder if the statement, "The more we tolerate the lower our standards become" is applicable too to days way of life?


It's a new one on me, and it appears to imply intolerance leads to higher standards. There may well be circumstances where this is appropriate, though I'd think it is somewhat deficient as a universal maxim.


To be intolerate to low standards should lead us in the direction of adopting higher standards.


But who gets to decide the standards, and who gets to decide if they're "higher"? Is it then not OK to disagree with the standard/status quo?


How did we come by our standards in the first place. Someone had to set them that society then agreed upon. We could now be looking at one of the root causes of why great nations are born but then finally collapse and die. Possibly it's great leaders who set the basic standards and when they depart so do the standards too that they once introduced. Great food for thought !!!
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Message 1174254 - Posted: 28 Nov 2011, 13:18:38 UTC

A lack of confidence in the police response to the initial riots in London in August led to further disturbances across England, a report has concluded.

The majority of people interviewed for a study indicated the perception that police "could not contain" the trouble was "the sole trigger" for more riots.

"Rioters believed they would be able to loot and damage without being challenged by the police. In the hardest-hit areas, they were correct."

The statistics showed that three-quarters of those already brought before the courts for the disturbances had previous convictions - and a quarter of those had committed more than 10 offences.

"While deprivation is not an excuse for criminal behaviour, we must seek to tackle the underlying causes of the riots, or they will happen again.

Riots report
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Message 1179686 - Posted: 21 Dec 2011, 11:56:12 UTC

People who stole TV's from shops 4 months ago probably thought they'd got away with it by now ....

Latest arrests
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Message 1183170 - Posted: 6 Jan 2012, 11:16:09 UTC

Interesting release under the 30 year rule....

Thatcher "shaken" after UK Riots

Not much change in 30 years then.....
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Message 1183208 - Posted: 6 Jan 2012, 14:27:16 UTC

Oh yes the Toxteth riots, I remember those....
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Message 1198953 - Posted: 23 Feb 2012, 19:52:18 UTC
Last modified: 23 Feb 2012, 19:52:42 UTC

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Message 1199674 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 15:26:24 UTC

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Message 1199693 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 16:54:25 UTC - in response to Message 1199674.  

update



For his main crime - reckless endangerment to life and unpremeditated murder - as well as riot, burglary, arson, etc, the sentence should be long on each count. All counts should be served one-after-another with no parole or remission. A 30+ year sentence should be given, and he should be ordered to compensate the insurance companies for the building contents and structure costs.
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Message 1199697 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 17:07:47 UTC - in response to Message 1199693.  

John, just wondering, how is he to compensate the insurance companies while serving a life sentence?
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Message 1199698 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 17:08:02 UTC - in response to Message 1199693.  

update



For his main crime - reckless endangerment to life and unpremeditated murder - as well as riot, burglary, arson, etc, the sentence should be long on each count. All counts should be served one-after-another with no parole or remission. A 30+ year sentence should be given, and he should be ordered to compensate the insurance companies for the building contents and structure costs.


He can consider himself lucky for many years ago they used to hang convicted
arsonist's.



The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.
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Message 1199704 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 17:23:24 UTC - in response to Message 1199698.  

He can consider himself lucky for many years ago they used to hang convicted arsonist's.



Well, if they ever bring it back, i'll be the 1st volunteer for the hangman's position....

...of course, I'd make sure that knots weren't that tight....

...30 mins to die sounds about right.....
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Message 1199709 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 17:37:22 UTC
Last modified: 25 Feb 2012, 17:45:55 UTC

OK, I'll make a stab at a guess.

He'll probably get 15 years for each account, all to run concurrently, and be out in 10 years on parole with good behaviour. Even that is better than not catching him at all. We will see.

The UK government and the establishment, were shocked to the core last summer with those riots. They, and we, never thought we would see the like in post war peacetime England. It won't be tolerated, and the continuing arrests many months later will carry on, until every last one of them is apprehended and dealt with.

The reasons for the riots were many and varied that combined to cause a flashpoint, and much work is also going on to deal with those ongoing issues.
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Message 1199737 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 19:31:57 UTC - in response to Message 1199697.  

John, just wondering, how is he to compensate the insurance companies while serving a life sentence?


He would have that pleasure and burden to contend with when he exits prison some 30+ years later.

His action, and all that flowed from it, was premeditated. He should be punished hard and with little mercy.
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Message 1199750 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 20:21:53 UTC

I think that we need to be careful not to jump to what maybe seemingly obvious conclusions.

I would think it unlikely that he would have woken up that morning, with the express intention of burning down a furniture store before the end of the day. It is more probable that he got caught up in the local mob violence and hysteria of the evening. But that does not in itself of course excuse any of his actions.

Before any sentence is passed the bench will have received various probation and other reports which will be taken into account e.g. is there a known history of this behaviour, or was this a once off from someone of previously good character. Has any genuine remorse been shown for what happened, and are they pleading guilty or not guilty.

So far, sentences from the riots have been markedly higher that what would have been expected, say 5 years ago, for the same offence. Clearly the Judicial system were intending to send out a strong message, and I doubt that it will be any different in this particular case.

It is a bit close to home for me in that I live only 5 miles from Croydon and I used to cycle past Reeves Corner in the mid 1950's as a young schoolboy. That furniture store was a famous local landmark, and to see it burn down in that way, was a real tragedy, which has been keenly felt by all people in South London. And of course. as you would expect, the press are taking a strong interest in this.

I would not like to be on that sentencing bench. If the term given is judged to be too harsh, they will be accused of making him a public scapegoat. If it is felt to be too lenient they will be attacked for being too soft. Almost a lose/lose situation. I am sure that justice will be done, but this is far from easy. As Bobby always says, "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ..."



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Message 1199827 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012, 23:10:53 UTC - in response to Message 1199737.  

I see, I admit I was not privy to the court proceedings as you apparently have been.

Then again, it sounds like you prefer quick justice and severe justice. Fair enough. Perhaps return to the justice systems in England of the 18th century -- but instead of transportation to Australia or to the American colonies, transportation to Syria, Darfur, Pakistan or Afghanistan.



He would have that pleasure and burden to contend with when he exits prison some 30+ years later.

His action, and all that flowed from it, was premeditated. He should be punished hard and with little mercy.


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Message 1199858 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012, 0:59:04 UTC - in response to Message 1199827.  

I see, I admit I was not privy to the court proceedings as you apparently have been.

Then again, it sounds like you prefer quick justice and severe justice. Fair enough. Perhaps return to the justice systems in England of the 18th century -- but instead of transportation to Australia or to the American colonies, transportation to Syria, Darfur, Pakistan or Afghanistan.



He would have that pleasure and burden to contend with when he exits prison some 30+ years later.

His action, and all that flowed from it, was premeditated. He should be punished hard and with little mercy.




Naw, get the French to resurrect Devil's Island & send them all there....No charge to the taxpayer then.
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Message 1199896 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012, 9:00:15 UTC
Last modified: 26 Feb 2012, 9:01:33 UTC

Having sat back and thought on Gordon Thompson's act firing the 150+ year old furniture store. During which the sparks spread to residential property and burnt them out as well. During the latter fire several people had to jump from first floor apartments or die by fire.

He clearly did not premeditate arson when he got up that morning, but clear evidence was presented during the riots that he premeditated the arson of that store.

So - when does the act of premeditation actually take place? Or - from what point in the day can a case of premeditation be judged to be in place?

I still think the result of his actions should be the basis of the punishment, and that he should not serve all jail time concurrently. An exception should be made in his case.
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Message 1199912 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012, 10:53:13 UTC

Having sat back and thought on Gordon Thompson's act firing the 150+ year old furniture store. During which the sparks spread to residential property and burnt them out as well. During the latter fire several people had to jump from first floor apartments or die by fire.

I don't excuse what he did and he must be punished for it. He is very lucky that no-one died because of his actions else he'd be facing manslaughter or murder charges as well.

He clearly did not premeditate arson when he got up that morning, but clear evidence was presented during the riots that he premeditated the arson of that store.

All I can add is this below from BBC News.

When he saw other rioters smashing the front window of Reeves, he climbed into the shop to steal the laptop. After he left he decided to burn it down. He stole a laptop from Reeves before asking around for a lighter and setting fire to a sofa, the court heard.

If it was premeditated surely he would have taken a lighter or other means with him. I'm also fairly sure that it wouldn't have occurred to him at the time that other buildings might also catch alight and that people would have to jump for their lives.

So - when does the act of premeditation actually take place? Or - from what point in the day can a case of premeditation be judged to be in place?

It's a good question and I expect you're looking for a good answer, but I'm afraid I haven't got one for you. I can only imagine from the point that you state to a third party what you intend to do before you do it. Then of course does the elapsed time in between then have a bearing upon it?

I still think the result of his actions should be the basis of the punishment, and that he should not serve all jail time concurrently. An exception should be made in his case.

Of course I agree with the first part, but there is an alternative in sentencing which may well be used in this case. A judge can give a sentence of say 20 years, but order that a minimum of 15 years of it be served in custody. Life imprisonment used to mean life, now people are freed after 25 or 30 years. Smaller sentences usually get remission for good behaviour etc. Minimum terms should be used far more often in my opinion.

Of course there are other issues, whatever sentence he gets his family, friends, and others are going to claim it was because he was black, a white person would have got less. They'll probably argue that he didn't get a fair trial because of media pressure and public expectation etc.

Judge Peter Thornton QC said Thompson would receive a lengthy sentence. We will know on 11 April.

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