UK Riots

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Message 1139545 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 20:08:49 UTC - in response to Message 1139528.  
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 20:43:01 UTC

but I do not believe in pre-judging them or their actions with flippant views and swift justice.

Well then Ozz, you would be out of touch with, and at odds with, the view over here.


It may very well be the view "over there", just as I'm sure there are some "over here" that agree with your view - doesn't make it the right view.

I find myself at odds with any group that wants vengeance and swift justice over a more humane thinking process. Are you suggesting that I must "go with the flow" so that I am not at odds with anyone? Because its not gonna happen. Humanity and the spirit of the law are more important than the basic human emotions most tend to allow themselves to be ruled by, and try to justify their positions accordingly.

Some magistrates courts in London sat throughout the night for a second time, and there were also late evening sittings in Birmingham and Manchester.

Swift justice is a deterrent to those that are considering further disruption. The enhanced police presence in our major cities will continue over all of the weekend. The message is clear. You commit criminal acts, your feet won't touch, you'll be in prison with a criminal record within 48 hours.


The swift justice argument does not work as a deterrent because people break the law for three common reasons or motivations:

1) Compulsion. You are a compulsive person and you cannot help yourself. You will break the law regardless. Those people growing up in a disadvantaged neighborhood will feel easily compelled to rebel or riot once they feel they've been turned upon by their own kind, hence why they think the "rich" are their enemies.

2) Profit. These people know they are stealing for personal gain, yet they do it anyway. They are well aware that if they get caught, they will have a record and probably have a record for the rest of their lives. But they choose to do it anyway.

3) Passion. These are the ones that are rioting with a cause. They feel that have little or nothing left to lose. They feel backed into a corner and they feel a loss of control over their own lives. They know that what they are doing is wrong, but they want to express themselves in the only way they know how. It means people need to learn to listen to one another a little better.


The idea that once you've sentenced someone for a crime, the idea that it keeps the criminal from having any more influence upon others who might do the same, that once you put them in jail no one will willingly choose to follow in their footsteps, the notion that all the ideas are locked up with the criminal behind bars... hehe yeah. Deterrent. Two words for you: Jesus Christ.
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Message 1139552 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 20:21:39 UTC - in response to Message 1139545.  
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 20:27:00 UTC


Well then Ozz, you would be out of touch with, and at odds with, the view over here.

Oh for goodness sakes. Ozz is NOT at odds with the view "over here". I am over here and I have no odds with Ozz. I find his views interesting and condusive to this debate.

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Message 1139556 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 20:41:41 UTC

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Message 1139557 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 20:42:30 UTC - in response to Message 1139531.  

David Cameron back councils planning to evict rioters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14509779

The prime minister has said people who "loot and pillage their own community" should be evicted from council houses.


Quite right, and he should lead by example and vacate No 10 immediately, after all, he does have history.

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1139559 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 20:52:36 UTC

As to sending convicts to the military, it used to be the norm in the USA. The military didn't like it, but when they had conscripts they could deal with it in basic training. Today in the USA they refuse to have it. But without conscripts they simply can not take the extra time to teach people who don't want to be there.

I am sure that in the past such placement was good for most of the people so placed. I'll wager that the recidivism rate for those that made it to a honorable discharge was considerably lower than those sent to a prison. But is isn't a cure all and I'm sure a number of them placed there ended up in the stockade.
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Message 1139567 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 21:11:54 UTC - in response to Message 1137954.  

Why are seven year olds allowed in the streets after 6/7 PM?

Why do some young parents do their laundry at a laundromat at midnight or 1 a.m., their 2 or 3 kids, all under 5, in tow? I saw that in 2001 or 2002. Stunning.
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Message 1139578 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 21:30:28 UTC - in response to Message 1139557.  

David Cameron back councils planning to evict rioters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14509779

The prime minister has said people who "loot and pillage their own community" should be evicted from council houses.


Quite right, and he should lead by example and vacate No 10 immediately, after all, he does have history.

Nice one Bobby, very humorous. But no. 10 isn't a council house and neither is the Prime Minister renting the place or have any kind of tenancy agreement and as such no landlord. Neither was he caught rioting, looting, burning or murdering those trying to put out the fires. Yes he should lead by example - by making sure those who did those things face the justice of the law.

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Message 1139593 - Posted: 12 Aug 2011, 22:04:54 UTC - in response to Message 1139578.  
Last modified: 12 Aug 2011, 22:08:05 UTC

David Cameron back councils planning to evict rioters
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-14509779

The prime minister has said people who "loot and pillage their own community" should be evicted from council houses.


Quite right, and he should lead by example and vacate No 10 immediately, after all, he does have history.

Nice one Bobby, very humorous. But no. 10 isn't a council house and neither is the Prime Minister renting the place or have any kind of tenancy agreement and as such no landlord. Neither was he caught rioting, looting, burning or murdering those trying to put out the fires. Yes he should lead by example - by making sure those who did those things face the justice of the law.


While it might not be a council house, No 10 is certainly supported by the tax paying public.

So the way to avoid eviction is not to get caught being a vandal? Then perhaps you'd agree that Cameron's arsonist deputy should be barred from taking up residence in any free "grace and favour" housing his office typically provides?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1139648 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 0:40:09 UTC

Watching the 10.00pm BBC local news covering Nottingham, where they were interviewing the populace in the street about the punishment for the rioters.

First the definition of the looting was shopping with violence and one lady said ... "if the rioter was convicted they should be birched for 15 minutes and salt then rubbed in to their backs".

An interesting punishment which would be remembered.
It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues



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Message 1139852 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 4:30:18 UTC - in response to Message 1139593.  
Last modified: 13 Aug 2011, 4:54:43 UTC


Nice one Bobby, very humorous. But no. 10 isn't a council house and neither is the Prime Minister renting the place or have any kind of tenancy agreement and as such no landlord. Neither was he caught rioting, looting, burning or murdering those trying to put out the fires. Yes he should lead by example - by making sure those who did those things face the justice of the law.


While it might not be a council house, No 10 is certainly supported by the tax paying public.

So the way to avoid eviction is not to get caught being a vandal? Then perhaps you'd agree that Cameron's arsonist deputy should be barred from taking up residence in any free "grace and favour" housing his office typically provides?

I am no supporter of Nick Clegg and his LibDem party and am tempted to agree with you, but I don't think someone now 42 years of age should now be punished for something they did at 16 just because there was a riot in London last week in which they did not participate. Hell, you would now evict old people in Japan for what they did in WW2 even though they don't have any houses, and why don't you convict Japanese whalers for some spurious link to the England riots? I would love that.

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Message 1139930 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 4:57:49 UTC - in response to Message 1139648.  

Watching the 10.00pm BBC local news covering Nottingham, where they were interviewing the populace in the street about the punishment for the rioters.

First the definition of the looting was shopping with violence and one lady said ... "if the rioter was convicted they should be birched for 15 minutes and salt then rubbed in to their backs".

An interesting punishment which would be remembered.

Yes, it would be remembered as when the UK turned into an Islamic state.


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Message 1139967 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 6:37:36 UTC - in response to Message 1139531.  
Last modified: 13 Aug 2011, 6:42:23 UTC


The most popular e-petition on the government's website currently calls for convicted rioters to lose their benefits. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337

Number of signatures is now 175,743

"This e-petition has received the following response:

This e-petition has reached 100,000 signatures. The Government has notified the Backbench Business Committee in the House of Commons who will consider its suitability for debate when Parliament returns in September. This e-petition will remain live, and people will be able to continue adding their signatures.

As you may be aware, the House of Commons debated the recent public disorder when Parliament was recalled on 11 August 2011 and there was an opportunity for MPs to address the substance of this e-petition. This does not preclude a decision by the Backbench Business Committee to schedule a further debate on this issue when the House of Commons returns from the summer recess.

In the meantime, we would like to update you on the Government’s current position on the substance of this e-petition.

Prisoners convicted of a criminal offence and detained in prison are not entitled to social security benefits. That means that anyone who is eligible for social security benefits and who is caught, convicted and imprisoned for any offence committed during the recent disorder that has disrupted London and other UK cities will be disqualified from receiving social security payments. The Department for Work and Pensions is also looking at whether further sanctions can be imposed on the benefit entitlements of individuals who receive non custodial sentences. In addition the Department is considering increasing the level of fines which can be deducted from benefit entitlement.

In relation to social housing, it is already a ground for eviction if a tenant or a member of their family is involved in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity in their local neighbourhood. Ministers have encouraged social landlords to use these powers, and a number of local authorities have pledged to do so. The Department for Communities and Local Government is consulting on proposals to allow such evictions to take place where the criminal activity takes place outside the vicinity of the local neighbourhood; more information is available to view here: http://www.communities.gov.uk/statements/newsroom/publicdisorder."

The Rt Hon Eric Pickles MP, Secretary of State, in the communities.gov.uk link above says "It is already a ground for eviction in existing legislation if a tenant or a member of their family is involved in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity in their local neighbourhood. I would urge landlords to consider this provision. We welcome the decision of Hammersmith and Fulham, Greenwich, Southwark and Manchester among others to seek to evict their social tenants found guilty of rioting, and would encourage more local authorities to follow suit."

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Message 1139978 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 7:08:02 UTC

Interesting move........

William Bratton

Unfortunately, if this goes ahead, all it will tell me is that this country has been employing the wrong people in senior positions of authority.

It also tells me that ALL politicians here are lying toerags...we're supposed to be tighening our belts due to the economical turmoil being experienced, yet they can find funds for outside advisors, because this man won't be cheap!

Also, with all the so called talent in this country, we can't produce a person of his calibre ourselves?
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Message 1140000 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 8:04:11 UTC - in response to Message 1139978.  
Last modified: 13 Aug 2011, 8:07:29 UTC

...we're supposed to be tighening our belts due to the economical turmoil being experienced, yet they can find funds for outside advisors, because this man won't be cheap!

'Apparently' he will not be paid, not be attached to any police force and will only be in the UK advising the government for a temporary period. Not to say this country will be throwing shed loads of cash at him for 5 star hotels, 1st class travel and all the expenses he can get away with.

Also, with all the so called talent in this country, we can't produce a person of his calibre ourselves?

I'm getting very concerned about Cameron. As PM he shouldn't be publicly blaming the police so readilly and so quickly and certainly not kicking the boot in them by bringing in this USA advisor so publicly. Nothing wrong with getting advice from Americans, but to me it seems he is being discourteous to senior British police officers who know how to do their jobs and who know how to learn lessons and listen to advice.

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Message 1140028 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 10:16:08 UTC - in response to Message 1139930.  

one lady said ... "if the rioter was convicted they should be birched for 15 minutes and salt then rubbed in to their backs".

An interesting punishment which would be remembered.



Yes, it would be remembered as when the UK turned into an Islamic state.



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Message 1140064 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 14:57:09 UTC - in response to Message 1139978.  

Interesting move........

William Bratton


His record ...
http://xicanopwr.com/2007/05/may-day-violence-at-los-angeles-macarthur-park/
Beat up reporters doing a live national TV feed sitting behind a desk in a temporary TV studio ...


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bobby "snowflake"
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Message 1140065 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 15:15:54 UTC - in response to Message 1139852.  


Nice one Bobby, very humorous. But no. 10 isn't a council house and neither is the Prime Minister renting the place or have any kind of tenancy agreement and as such no landlord. Neither was he caught rioting, looting, burning or murdering those trying to put out the fires. Yes he should lead by example - by making sure those who did those things face the justice of the law.


While it might not be a council house, No 10 is certainly supported by the tax paying public.

So the way to avoid eviction is not to get caught being a vandal? Then perhaps you'd agree that Cameron's arsonist deputy should be barred from taking up residence in any free "grace and favour" housing his office typically provides?

I am no supporter of Nick Clegg and his LibDem party and am tempted to agree with you, but I don't think someone now 42 years of age should now be punished for something they did at 16 just because there was a riot in London last week in which they did not participate. Hell, you would now evict old people in Japan for what they did in WW2 even though they don't have any houses, and why don't you convict Japanese whalers for some spurious link to the England riots? I would love that.


Fair enough, so how long in your opinion should the rioters be barred from council housing and/or receiving benefits?

I've no idea what the comments about WW2/Japanese whalers have to do with UK Riots, I'm merely highlighting the hypocrisy of British politicians when it comes to condemning the acts of others when those acts are not all that dissimilar to what they performed in their youth. And when it comes to looting, how different is it to have raided the public purse for a flat screen TV (as I believe Gerald Kaufman, MP, did) than to take one from a store?

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1140066 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 15:30:17 UTC - in response to Message 1139648.  
Last modified: 13 Aug 2011, 15:31:08 UTC

Watching the 10.00pm BBC local news covering Nottingham, where they were interviewing the populace in the street about the punishment for the rioters.

First the definition of the looting was shopping with violence and one lady said ... "if the rioter was convicted they should be birched for 15 minutes and salt then rubbed in to their backs".

An interesting punishment which would be remembered.


There's always someone from the hang 'em and flog 'em brigade ready to set Britain penal code back a century or two. I'm sure some would blame the lack of such punishments on the European's, in the form of Human Rights legislation. While the legislation may well be to blame, it's hardly the fault of the Europeans.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1140076 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 15:49:05 UTC

Best way to deal with them is to knock down all prisons & use the land for housing. THEN, rather than sell off all our military bases for the greedy money men to make millions from, use them as military prisons - no tv & leisure time there.

Pay them a set rate for work done then confiscate that earnings to repay their victims. Job done!
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Message 1140107 - Posted: 13 Aug 2011, 16:27:58 UTC - in response to Message 1140065.  
Last modified: 13 Aug 2011, 16:28:56 UTC


Nice one Bobby, very humorous. But no. 10 isn't a council house and neither is the Prime Minister renting the place or have any kind of tenancy agreement and as such no landlord. Neither was he caught rioting, looting, burning or murdering those trying to put out the fires. Yes he should lead by example - by making sure those who did those things face the justice of the law.


While it might not be a council house, No 10 is certainly supported by the tax paying public.

So the way to avoid eviction is not to get caught being a vandal? Then perhaps you'd agree that Cameron's arsonist deputy should be barred from taking up residence in any free "grace and favour" housing his office typically provides?

I am no supporter of Nick Clegg and his LibDem party and am tempted to agree with you, but I don't think someone now 42 years of age should now be punished for something they did at 16 just because there was a riot in London last week in which they did not participate. Hell, you would now evict old people in Japan for what they did in WW2 even though they don't have any houses, and why don't you convict Japanese whalers for some spurious link to the England riots? I would love that.


Fair enough, so how long in your opinion should the rioters be barred from council housing and/or receiving benefits?

I'd rather that be decided by the Secretary of State and the law of the land.

I've no idea what the comments about WW2/Japanese whalers have to do with UK Riots,


None at all, which I think is the point that I was trying to make about you next point. However, I think you are right to make that next point. Politians with a past, as they all have, should remember we are all human beings and may have done wrong in the past. However the riots took place only last week and it was horrible. Masses of hooded youths and others looting, rioting, fire bombing, attacking police and trashing their communities. I don't really care to let all that go because Clegg is a twit and you managed to dig up some dirt on him.

I'm merely highlighting the hypocrisy of British politicians when it comes to condemning the acts of others when those acts are not all that dissimilar to what they performed in their youth. And when it comes to looting, how different is it to have raided the public purse for a flat screen TV (as I believe Gerald Kaufman, MP, did) than to take one from a store?


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