This really hits home... and it deserves it's own thread.

World may become too hot for humans if some global warming scenarios occur.

Get thinking people! We need to solve this behemoth of a problem now!

It ceases to amaze me how plainly stupid some people are.
There are two basic kinds of climate change deniers - idealogues and profiteers. The profiteers think money will eventually overcome bad air and unstable climate at least for those who can afford whatever technologies will make that possible. Idealogues believe that man has been granted dominion over the earth and that everything in it and on it was put here for us to use, abuse and defile and that at some magical point in time the believers will be gathered up and saved by the deity of their choice. Unfortunately those of us who believe we owe the earth a debt of protection for providing sustenance and safe living space will burn just as surely as those who disregard our impact either for greed or because of the arrogance of their religious beliefs.

I really hope climate change DOES occur in my lifetime so I can laugh in the face of these losers who are drowning in their arrogance.

Hoping the world doesn't wither and die,
- Luke.

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- Luke.

Well, i don't really subscribe to any theory. It's hard to based on what evidence there is. Half the scientists say it's not an issue, and the other half can't agree on what will happen if it's really happening.

In my opinion, actual hard evidence is necessary. Temperatures are apparently rising, but that's been recorded before. Hard to know if we're doing it, or the earth's just doing its thing.

Just imagine the United States permanently in the bad state it was recently financially. That's probably what would result in the government trying to combat greenhouse emissions. It'd damn near bankrupt the country. The Government wouldn't stand for it, and neither would the people at large. All the manufacturing jobs head to China and India, cheap labour.

Any single government can not afford to do that. But they CAN do nothing, and see what happens. And that's what will happen.

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Well, i don't really subscribe to any theory. It's hard to based on what evidence there is. Half the scientists say it's not an issue, and the other half can't agree on what will happen if it's really happening.

In my opinion, actual hard evidence is necessary. ...

Nope.

There is remarkable agreement and consensus that man-made global warming is very real and happening very quickly. The very great majority of reputable scientists agree. Those not in agreement are non-scientists or those that have been bought off. Understandable really when you see how a few well known scientists at the end of their careers have made a cool few millions from the oil and coal industries to compare against a miserly destitute pension...


The only arguments now are over various small details and over how very quickly. The "quickly" is "years". Very much more quickly than the more usual geological millennia!


And the evidence is all too apparent. Just one example is that we may well have already hit the tipping point where there will be no sea ice in the Arctic during the summer in just the next two or three years. That one aspect is going to make a few changes to the 'normal' weather patterns...

The steady increase in CO2 concentration that is directly measured is evidence enough. Very strange how that effect started about 200 years ago...


What more evidence do you want?

Regards,
Martin

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Can you explain how we measured that effect 200 years ago?

And before you start arguing again, my point is that there's nothing we can do about it. Politicians run the world, we just live on it. They make the world we live in.

Your opinion is exactly that, your opinion. Based on tv news and a few gaudy websites. The science is ongoing, and far from definitive.

If you've nothing to add besides attacking my opinion, move along, be on your way.

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Can you explain how we measured that effect 200 years ago?

Yes, and you can just as easily look that up. Wikipedia is an easy place to start. Don't believe anything I say... Look it up for yourself so that you see for yourself. Just consider how reliable the source is.

... If you've nothing to add besides attacking my opinion, move along, be on your way.

Sounds like your mind is already set in stone and ice.

How hot and how far far too late does it need to be before you melt?

Regards,
Martin

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Yes, my mind is made up. I'm entititled to have an opinion. If you've no fresh thoughts of your own, and only post quoting me and criticizing my opinion it's far far too late for you.

CO2 is a small fish. Methane is the real killer. Go Wikipedia that one. I'll even give you the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

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To me it's just another passing fad. Like the ozone layer a few years back. Ever hear about that anymore? No. We found a new horse to ride.

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Yes, my mind is made up. I'm entititled to have an opinion. If you've no fresh thoughts of your own, and only post quoting me and criticizing my opinion it's far far too late for you.

CO2 is a small fish. Methane is the real killer. Go Wikipedia that one. I'll even give you the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

I suppose that's all down to how many beans you eat!

I guess you're entitled to be blindly blinkered also. Just keep the FUD silliness to yourself and your own dreams please?

See:
Wikipedia: Greenhouse gasses

for a little wider context and more of reality.


(And yes, ozone levels is still an issue.)

Good luck,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
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http://www.worldculturepictorial.com/blog/content/arctic-heats-thaws-permafrost-sealing-methane-greenh
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080423181652.htm

I'll work out how to get those links right one day :)

Anyway.... I checked your Wikidicki page, and it says that carbon dioxide contributes between 9 - 26% of greenhouse effect.

And Methane a measly 4 - 9%. So, i concede. EDIT. I stand corrected.

My point still is, there's nothing we can do about it.

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... My point still is, there's nothing we can do about it.

We're already doing something about it, if only rather slowly at the moment. The politics surrounding all this are going to get rather fraught...

In the past, climate change on a very much smaller scale than what we now are already seeing has lead to the demise of a number of major civilisations...

Perversely, there's one scenario whereby we get to turn the earth into one huge 'snowball' by tripping into a sequence that then leads to worldwide glaciation. Hope we don't get that far! Most other scenarios lead to warming, radically changed weather patterns, mass migrations and wars as people die and fight for land and food...


The first steps are to become more efficient with energy use and to sequester the industrially produced CO2. Better and more sympathetic farming practices for better land use will greatly help also. There should be some golden opportunities for developing alternative energy supplies, some of which we're just starting to see. Nuclear power will have its place to fill a few energy gaps also.

All that will 'buy' us some time until we hit the next real 'biggie': vast overpopulation.


Could we limit population growth? There are signs that happens naturally in the stress of the developed countries. Japan is a very good example for that where they have a 'baby shortage'. Not sure how the Chinese example should be viewed...

Or could we continue our expansion and move to undersea habitation? And then onto Mars?...


First step is to learn how to better look after our own only planet.

It is we that are producing all the excess CO2 going into the atmosphere. Hence we have control over that.

Multiple natural cycles on earth were settled in an equilibrium balance for many thousands of years for the atmospheric CO2 concentration. That is, until we started to liberate massive amounts of CO2 that had been sequestered as carbon in prehistoric times.


It's our only planet.

Regards,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
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And before you start arguing again, my point is that there's nothing we can do about it. Politicians run the world, we just live on it. They make the world we live in.

Politicians will do exactly what the people tell them to do, if the people can get their shite together and force the issue.

We have the ultimate power but fail to exercise it as a collective entity.

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I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

We have the ultimate power but fail to exercise it as a collective entity.
[/quote]


So after all that Robert, you agree. Politicians are doing as they please.

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The Australian government has been listening to its people recently. Our PM was all set to sign off on an Emissions Trading Scheme. Then the Unions pointed out the obvious. Economically, it wasn't viable. It would cost companies too much money, and too many jobs would be lost. No more ETS.

Democracy in action.

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There are plenty of things we can do.

Start using more renewable energy (wind, solar, hydro, tidal, geothermal, ...). Use more fission power. Stop burning so much coal in power plants. Stop burning so much natural gas in power plants. Build and buy more efficient cars and trucks. Work at going to electrical cars and trucks (need to develop batteries that can take rapid charging to really make long distance travel viable). In places where airconditioning is the norm in the summertime, replace incandescent lights with flourescent or LED. Turn up the thermostat a few degrees in the summertime and turn it down a few degrees in the winter. Organize local trips to drive less...

All of these things will help, none of them is a magic bullet. None of them will act soon enough to save the arctic sea ice. Hopefully we can save the Greenland Ice Sheet (talk about an economic depressor - try loosing ALL of the seaports in the world).

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BOINC WIKI

So after all that Robert, you agree. Politicians are doing as they please.

Uh, no.
I don't agree. The premise of your statement was that there was "nothing we can do about it" and I simply pointed out you were wrong.

We can do anything we want if we get our shite together collectively.

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I do not fight fascists because I think I can win.
I fight them because they are fascists.
Chris Hedges

A riot is the language of the unheard. -Martin Luther King, Jr.

And exactly how would we get our message to the governments to make them act? A sit in at the white house, or house of parliament? A demonstration? Perhaps a bit of rioting, looting and pillaging on the side?

Not meaning to be a smartass, but i know i am. Sorry.

Can you put forward a proposal as to how to get our collective shite together? A sincere question.

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Can you put forward a proposal as to how to get our collective shite together? A sincere question.

Industry and unions have their (paid) lobby groups.

To counter that, and to shout out a very public volunteer voice, there's:

Avaaz

They have been very creative in lobbying for the good of the people. See what you think.


At a more local level, you yourself can do a surprising amount by just getting to know your local politicians concerning whatever issues.

Regards,
Martin

---

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Martin, in Australia atm we have a labour government in power. Unions have always controlled the Labour party, as that is what they stand for. Our Liberal party (the only other contender) has basically no policy for climate change either. They just bag the Labour party for backing down on the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS). Saying the Government is weak. Well, our current Government is weak in that respect. It can't sign off on an ETS as there is no money to fund it. Only way for that is higher taxes and/or less money for roads, hospitals, infrastructure. Our biggy, mining of various sorts, will suffer badly. Current Government is trying to impose new taxes on the mining sector. Well, jobs go. Productivity goes. Profits go. (That's what drives the world, like it or not.)
None of us will stand for that...no matter how good their intentions. It is what it is, and you can't change what is. We have a standard of living, one of the best in the world. We don't want to change that. Quote' whoever it was' "ignorance is bliss".
That is Australia. Home of the Ozone hole.

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...no matter how good their intentions. It is what it is, and you can't change what is. We have a standard of living, one of the best in the world. We don't want to change that. Quote' whoever it was' "ignorance is bliss".
That is Australia. Home of the Ozone hole.

That sounds like the comments of the luxuriously oppressed or the plain lazy apathetic. However, too much apathy and mismanagement and you'll soon lose your luxurious "Eden"...

The "whoever it was" was Thomas Gray in his poem "Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College"


Note also:

The fictitious nature of ignorance

"Ignorance is bliss, but its ransom is to keep you a prisoner of your own fears"

Louise Bourgeois


Why is ignorance bliss?

Ignorance is bliss because if you don't know something, it can't hurt you. As children, people are themselves and get along much better. The more we age, the farther we lose who we are and begin to restrain ourselves for fear of others. As we grow older, we become increasingly aware of pain and suffering, and the more we know about everything wrong in the world, the more we lose our innocence and become less 'blissful'. I read once that when we lose the innocence of childhood, we become compassionate. That's the start of adulthood. We loose our ignorance and bliss with innocence, but we gain knowledge, compassion, and understanding.


And from another quote and one I prefer:

Ignorance is defined as The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed. Who would want to be uneducated, unaware, and uninformed?? Not me, I would rather be wise and blissful.


It's all up to you!

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
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The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

..., where the f*ck does the money come from to implement those ideas? ...

Yes. we can all do something ourselves, until it comes to the dollars to do it. As an individual i can't afford to do it. If i want my government to help me, well.. do they pull the money out of the magic chocolate starfish?

Which is where a push for better management and managed change is far better than disgraceful catastrophe.

More thought and positive action and less bitchin'?

It's your world. An interesting start is to ask your local political representative what is being done and what is being planned. "No money" or "no resource" is not an excuse. There is far too much being squandered in being inefficient in the first place!

It's your world.

Regards,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)